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Ideal Halyards

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  • 30 May 2011 12:41
    Quote
    Reply # 605490 on 604690
    Deleted user


    Without a winch, the best of blocks would be a big improvement, it seems, and maybe I'd make up a barber-haul tackle with a climbing ascender for the last panel. Has anybody tried that way?


    We don't have winches for our sails or anchor on Easy Go. I use a Handy Billy, a four part block and tackle, in place of a winch. In reality I can raise our four part halyards on both sails from the cockpit but Kathy can't get the last panel up without some mechanical assistance. Instead of a climbing ascender I just use a rolling hitch. Less gadgets to deal with. I like having the Handy Billy aboard for other tasks. We use it attached to the main boom to lift water jugs from the dinghy to the back deck when watering at anchor to name just one. I have seen an illustration using a Jam Cleat instead of a rolling hitch that would be faster but haven't tried it.
  • 29 May 2011 21:06
    Quote
    Reply # 604952 on 604157
    Anonymous member
    Thanks, Arne, for your well-considered response. 

    For the last two or three panels, I can probably bear winching slowly the 5:1 reams of rope. I do need to get the top panel dropping reliably, so ratio or hardware will need to change. I'd better do more experimenting and incremental improvements, as you've done. (much as I'd enjoy opening several boxes of top quality blocks and winches...)

    It's apparent that a solution is a compromise, especially if money is a factor.

    Regards,
    Kurt

    Last modified: 29 May 2011 21:13 | Anonymous member
  • 29 May 2011 10:12
    Quote
    Reply # 604768 on 604157
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Sunday

    Hi there

    Hoisting Johanna’s 48sqm sail has always been a bit of a challenge. The sail is so big and I am not. At first I had fitted it with a wooden yard; a direct copy of the PJR standard yard. This had worked well on Malena’s 32sqm sail (and still does). However, the cube law of scaling brought the weight of this yard up in over 20kg, I think – a real monster. This, together with 5-part sheet and no halyard winch made hoisting simply impractical for me alone. By constructing a much lighter aluminium yard, changing to 3-part sheet and finally adding a self-tailing winch, I got back in control.

    When I am alone, I hoist 5 panels in the cockpit, then rest a bit while stuffing the tail in the bag. Then finally the two upper panels are raised with the winch. Still quite a job, but bearable. Most of the blocks have ball bearings, but they could have been a number bigger. Replacing the halyard with a new one a few years back made hoisting easier.

    With two on board I hoist the whole sail by the mast as Kurt does, with the crew handling the tail. As for 5- versus 3-part halyard, I think I will stick with 5-part as long as the sail comes down without any need for down-hauling. The uneven number lets me replace the old one with a new without going aloft.

    Now, last week I received a new gadget from England; an electric winch handle called WinchRite ®. I have not tried it yet, but will do as soon as the weather improves. I have done some rough calculations and it should be able to raise my sail 3-6 times between charging (its internal battery). This is a much cheaper alternative (around 500£) than the deck mounted electric winches which cost 4-5 times as much. The plan behind this is that I will be freer to drop and hoist sail again 2-3 times a day without wearing myself out.

    Conclusion:

    1 Don’t fit too heavy yards and battens

    2 Use good blocks and rather one number too big for the rope size.

    3 Be aware of sheet friction.

    4 The parrels, luff- and yard- adds friction too. Make the luff parrel simple or it will hold the sail back when hoisting.

    5 Put the halyard winch in the best position for swinging the handle with both hands, letting you use your body on it and not just one poor little hand.

    Cheers, Arne

    PS: It is tempting to try the 3-part halyard, now if that WinchRite thing turns out to work. Maybe...

    Last modified: 29 May 2011 22:17 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 29 May 2011 06:38
    Quote
    Reply # 604690 on 604157
    Anonymous member
    Wow! David, you're like our own "Q," with mobile laboratory!

    I have to acknowledge that Marie would need a winch to raise full sail alone, even with the best blocks. And that's besides Annie's good point about anyone functioning with an injury. Another good Annie point - all the downward lines add to the difficulty of raising sail, especially the sheets.

    With a winch, reducing the halyard purchase would salvage some raising speed and reduce the effects of friction, at the cost of making the winch always necessary, for any more than a couple of panels.

    Without a winch, the best of blocks would be a big improvement, it seems, and maybe I'd make up a barber-haul tackle with a climbing ascender for the last panel. Has anybody tried that way?

    Thanks for your comments, David & Annie. Other people, what are your thoughts on halyards?

    Cheers,
    Kurt
    Last modified: 29 May 2011 06:41 | Anonymous member
  • 29 May 2011 02:48
    Quote
    Reply # 604336 on 604157
    Anonymous member
    OK, so Kurt's posting set me to thinking. Do I really lose as much as 10% per sheave?
    So I hung up a block of the type I use (acetal sheave on metal bush), and suspended two identical containers, each with 1.5 liters of water, on a rope through the block. Then I attached another small container to one side of the rope. I had to put 20 - 25% of 1.5 litres of water into the small container to get it to move! A depressing amount of friction. I tried the same with a block that has an Oilite bronze bearing, with the same result. I tried with a new, unused, Harken 3" ball bearing block, and the figure was about 5 %. 
    Note that these are tests at light loads. Please will someone repeat them at more representative loads, of about 50kg each side? 
    Also note that ball bearing blocks are not too good at carrying the load of a junk rig halyard for long periods, and I suggest that only cylindrical roller bearings, usually in Torlon, are up to this kind of service.
  • 29 May 2011 01:22
    Quote
    Reply # 604198 on 604157
    Anonymous member
    Yes, the winch is slow, but maybe most of the time you have someone at the mast to speed things up?

    I have also found the roller bearing sheet blocks make a huge difference.  In fact on Badger we had several combinations of roller and non-roller bearing blocks and eventually came to the conclusion that sheets that overhauled and ran out with a minimum of friction reduced more effort than roller bearing halliard blocks.  This was a shame, because the sheet blocks move constantly and the roller bearings don't like that, so they didn't last as long.  If one were clever and patient, one would make one's own blocks with needle bearings so that they could be replaced when they wore out.

    A further consideration that makes a winch attractive to me, is that if I were to hurt my hand, or arm, I could still do something with the sails.
  • 29 May 2011 00:36
    Quote
    Reply # 604180 on 604157
    Anonymous member
    Kurt Jon Ulmer wrote:For a boat almost mehitabel's size, David has recently recommended a halyard purchase of 3:1, led to a self-tailing winch with 'power' of about 16:1 to 30:1. I'm sure that advice is sound. I only hesitate in case I can avoid using a winch. (Topic "boats...")

    Raising the last 2 panels of our sails is too hard from the cockpit by hand, with 5:1 purchase.

    We normally send someone to the mast to haul, in flat water. If there's no-one to tail in the cockpit, I go forward to haul, hitch it at the mast, go aft and take up the slack... 
    Not ideal.

    At sea, I laboriously sweat the line in the cockpit. 
    Not ideal.

    I hesitate to change to 3:1 and lose any chance of hauling by hand.
    But at 3:1, at least the yards would drop onto the bundle every time.
    4:1 puts the knot at the masthead. Not ideal.

    Reducing friction has only limited potential, because the leads must go where they go.

    Winching is so dizzying slow!

    Please share your ideal halyard solutions, or your compromises.

    Cheers,
    Kurt

    I think reducing friction has more than a limited potential. "Received wisdom" says that a plain bearing block loses you 10% of the tension in a rope, for each 180 turn. If so, the first yard block of a 5 part purchase is exerting a pull of 1.71 times your pull on the yard, the second yard block is exerting a pull of 1.40 times your pull on the yard, and the bitter end  is only exerting .59 times your pull on the yard - a total of 3.70 times your pull is exerted on the yard, not 5.00. (that's ignoring a 90 turn at the deck, which loses you some more).
    Now put some roller bearing blocks into your halyard tackle, with a loss of say 2% per sheave. The sum then works out as 4.70 times your pull exerted on the yard, for a 5 part tackle - worth an extra part in the tackle. 
    Thus a 4 part tackle with very efficient roller blocks is equivalent to a 5 part tackle with plain bearing blocks. If I were rich, I'd buy some Harken or Lewmar Torlon-roller blocks for my halyards. If I were contemplating the purchase of a self tailing winch for my halyard, I would compare the price with that of a set of said roller bearing blocks first.
       And I would add that using a self tailer allows me to steer with one hand, hoist sail with the other, even if it takes a while.
       Also in the interests of increasing efficiency and decreasing wear and tear, I use two separate, single masthead blocks on my 3 part halyard. If the sail is not on the centreline, there is some twist in the halyard tackle. If a double or treble block is used, this inevitably results in the fall of the halyard exiting the block at an angle, introducing more friction and wear. (For a 5 part halyard I would use one double block, one single block).
    Last modified: 29 May 2011 01:05 | Anonymous member
  • 28 May 2011 23:41
    Quote
    Message # 604157
    Anonymous member
    For a boat almost mehitabel's size, David has recently recommended a halyard purchase of 3:1, led to a self-tailing winch with 'power' of about 16:1 to 30:1. I'm sure that advice is sound. I only hesitate in case I can avoid using a winch. (Topic "boats...")

    Raising the last 2 panels of our sails is too hard from the cockpit by hand, with 5:1 purchase.

    We normally send someone to the mast to haul, in flat water. If there's no-one to tail in the cockpit, I go forward to haul, hitch it at the mast, go aft and take up the slack... 
    Not ideal.

    At sea, I laboriously sweat the line in the cockpit. 
    Not ideal.

    I hesitate to change to 3:1 and lose any chance of hauling by hand.
    But at 3:1, at least the yards would drop onto the bundle every time.
    4:1 puts the knot at the masthead. Not ideal.

    Reducing friction has only limited potential, because the leads must go where they go.

    Winching is so dizzying slow!

    Please share your ideal halyard solutions, or your compromises.

    Cheers,
    Kurt

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