Alloy Batten end questions

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  • 23 Mar 2011 06:24
    Reply # 551611 on 551500
    Barry & Meps / Stellrecht & Schulte wrote: Thanks everybody for your answers.

    Now I've got one more question:  How long do I make my battens?  PJR says to make them 101% of the nominal designed batten length, where the sail is sewn flat to exactly the designed batten length, and the sail is then stretched onto the battens.

    Does it work the same with cambered panels?
    What works best is: you make the sail, and then see how long the batten actually should be, as against how long you calculated it should be. When you sew, a tight thread can cause minute puckering that seems negligible, but turns out not be so, over 18ft. So finish one end of the batten, to try out your chosen method, and leave the other end for later.
  • 23 Mar 2011 02:14
    Reply # 551500 on 549348
    Deleted user
    Thanks everybody for your answers.

    Now I've got one more question:  How long do I make my battens?  PJR says to make them 101% of the nominal designed batten length, where the sail is sewn flat to exactly the designed batten length, and the sail is then stretched onto the battens.

    Does it work the same with cambered panels?
  • 22 Mar 2011 23:52
    Reply # 551429 on 551146
    Barry & Meps / Stellrecht & Schulte wrote:
    David Tyler wrote: A webbing loop parallel to the batten, sewn to the opposite side of the sail from the batten and passing around a smooth shallow groove in the batten end, works well if you put two eyes in the sail, above and below the batten with a triangular lashing through the webbing loop and both eyes.
    I think I like the idea, but I'm having a little trouble visualizing it, especially the triangular lashing technique.  Can show me a picture or diagram?

    The best I can figure is that it would be mostly a "normal" lashing going through the eyes, around the batten, with some extra lashing to the wrapped loop to keep the batten from pushing out past the sailcloth any more.

    David Tyler wrote:However, I have come to prefer a more "engineered" solution. I put a pressed 10mm eye in the sail, through sufficient patches, and through it, a panhead or csk 8mm machine screw that assembles to a drilled and tapped hole in the (plugged) end of the batten.
    Sounds reasonable enough for you, but I've spent too much time trying to get old stainless screws and bolts out of aluminum, and finding stripped threads....If a lashing is strong enough for the job, I love the fact that it can be removed with a knife if needed, and can always be replaced without need of any machine shop tools.  I will try to stick to the lower tech attachments where I can!
    I've made a drawing, "leech arrangement", and put it into "David's Doodles". The same can be used at the luff, and the webbing loop then becomes very useful for attaching batten parrels and blocks for luff parrels.
    I should have said that whatever you do with a tubular batten, the end needs to be plugged and rounded so that a tube edge never contacts the sail. I have found it easiest to use plastic bar, the cheapest I can get, which is usually PVC (although wood would work, also). You can work a groove for webbing or a lashing in this easily enough, but it's easier still to drill and tap an M8 or 5/16" hole, and your screw will never seize up in the plastic - a drop of Loctite is good insurance against working loose.
  • 22 Mar 2011 19:32
    Reply # 551252 on 549348
    Robert's comments are interesting to me, because we went the same way on 'Badger'.  I am hoping to fit my battens today and my plan is once again to fasten everything to the battens with no extra loads on the sail.  I've sewn webbing loops onto my sail, with extra length sewn back into the body of the sail to spread the load - a little.  All it needs from my experience.
  • 22 Mar 2011 16:54
    Reply # 551146 on 550634
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote: A webbing loop parallel to the batten, sewn to the opposite side of the sail from the batten and passing around a smooth shallow groove in the batten end, works well if you put two eyes in the sail, above and below the batten with a triangular lashing through the webbing loop and both eyes.
    I think I like the idea, but I'm having a little trouble visualizing it, especially the triangular lashing technique.  Can show me a picture or diagram?

    The best I can figure is that it would be mostly a "normal" lashing going through the eyes, around the batten, with some extra lashing to the wrapped loop to keep the batten from pushing out past the sailcloth any more.

    David Tyler wrote:However, I have come to prefer a more "engineered" solution. I put a pressed 10mm eye in the sail, through sufficient patches, and through it, a panhead or csk 8mm machine screw that assembles to a drilled and tapped hole in the (plugged) end of the batten.
    Sounds reasonable enough for you, but I've spent too much time trying to get old stainless screws and bolts out of aluminum, and finding stripped threads....If a lashing is strong enough for the job, I love the fact that it can be removed with a knife if needed, and can always be replaced without need of any machine shop tools.  I will try to stick to the lower tech attachments where I can!
  • 22 Mar 2011 11:31
    Reply # 550955 on 549348
    Deleted user
    We followed the recommendations of PJR for attaching the sheets and sheetlets to the battens using webbing sewn to the sail and reinforced by the grommet also used to tension the sail on the batten. This worked well for quite a while but the webbing eventually chafed against the batten. The webbing also wore the edge of the sail. Tensions on the sail were causing some problems with the stitching and tension wear was becoming evident.

    We have refined our batten/sail attachment by using the grommets only for lashing the sail to the battens. The sheets and sheetlets are lashed to the batten indepently as are the parrels and running parrels. It will be interesting to see if there is an increase in wear to the batten pockets in the future. To date these changes have decreased wear and stress on the sail fabric.
    We find the sheets do not foul at the end of the batten or against the sail as much as the old arrangement.
    Last modified: 22 Mar 2011 11:31 | Deleted user
  • 21 Mar 2011 22:22
    Reply # 550634 on 549348
    Barry & Meps / Stellrecht & Schulte wrote:I'm planning to sew batten pockets for the middle of the sail, and sew an extra webbing loop to the boltrope for each batten.  It could be an open loop or a small pocket on the leech, and will be an open webbing loop at the luff, allowing the sail to be tensioned to the batten as neededPJR suggests that batten ends should not protrude past the leech, as they will likely foul the sheets if they do. PJR suggests a webbing loop sewed on the sail and the sheetlet tied onto it.So what has worked well?  I'm leaning toward capturing the leech end of the batten in a pocket, although If I do, I would leave a gap or a hole just ahead of my boltrope so I could lash it to the batten with a matching hole through the batten end.
    A webbing loop parallel to the batten, sewn to the opposite side of the sail from the batten and passing around a smooth shallow groove in the batten end, works well if you put two eyes in the sail, above and below the batten with a triangular lashing through the webbing loop and both eyes. This works at both luff and leech, with the leech being lashed first so as to prevent the batten from protruding.
    However, I have come to prefer a more "engineered" solution. I put a pressed 10mm eye in the sail, through sufficient patches, and through it, a panhead or csk 8mm machine screw that assembles to a drilled and tapped hole in the (plugged) end of the batten. Then the batten end is held securely flush with the leech.
    I was never able to make closed batten pockets that didn't eventually chafe from the inside.
    For single sheeting, the webbing loop attachment as per PJR is still as good as anything, and better than most. The force from the sheet is transferred directly to the sail, rather than from the sheet to the batten, the batten to the sail.
  • 19 Mar 2011 19:58
    Message # 549348
    Deleted user
    I'm mostly ready to go with my aluminum alloy batten order to go with my cambered sails for Flutterby.  I'm trying to follow (mostly) the recommendations that were written up in PJR, or those that Arne wrote up describing his cambered sails on Johanna.  I am intending to rig single sheeting.

    I need to securely attach three things together:
    • The ends of my battens
    • My webbing boltrope
    • The sheetlets (or sheet) attachments
    I'm planning to sew batten pockets for the middle of the sail, and sew an extra webbing loop to the boltrope for each batten.  It could be an open loop or a small pocket on the leech, and will be an open webbing loop at the luff, allowing the sail to be tensioned to the batten as needed.

    Then I start getting confused on what to do:
    • PJR suggests that batten ends should not protrude past the leech, as they will likely foul the sheets if they do.  Their batten pocket capture the end of the batten at the leech.
    • Arne shows batten ends stickin gout the leech. He does mention a few things he did to get around these problems with sheetlets getting stuck on the battens.
    The next choices seem to correlate with the one above:
    • PJR suggests a webbing loop sewed on the sail and the sheetlet tied onto it.
    • Arne uses some method to attach the sheetlet to the batten instead.
    So what has worked well?  I'm leaning toward capturing the leech end of the batten in a pocket, although If I do, I would leave a gap or a hole just ahead of my boltrope so I could lash it to the batten with a matching hole through the batten end.
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