Moon River build update

  • 30 Aug 2017 00:30
    Reply # 5055007 on 5008877

    the pump was a manual diaphragm pump.

    Henderson/Whale Mark V typically used for holding tanks.

    The bilge discharged through the side next to the sink drain but it had an anti siphon loop.

    The 3-way was on the bilge pump intake and changed between bilge or sink.

  • 29 Aug 2017 17:08
    Reply # 5054167 on 5008877
    Deleted user

    David, Annie, and Garth, this is good feedback. 

    Annie: I like the barrel pump idea. Simple and effective. How do you keep the cylindrical shaft from turning as you screw/unscrew the handle?

    Garth: I'm assuming that the three way valve closed off the bilge side of the intake when it opened the sink side?  Was it a manual pump or electric, and if electric, did you have a float switch bypass along with turning the Y valve?  Did the bilge output run through the transom above the waterline?

    And rest assured - if it can get below the emergency waterline, I'm putting a seacock on it.

  • 29 Aug 2017 16:06
    Reply # 5054052 on 5008877

    My last boat had a galley sink that drained overboard with a very flat run.  It work just fine in port and on starboard tack but the sink would flood on port.

    I tee'd into the drain and ran a suction to a 3-way valve at the bilge pump which was right under the sink.  This worked very well.  In port I used the gravity drain and at sea I closed the skin valve, switched the 3-way, and pumped the sink out its regular discharge fitting.

    Sounds complicated but it was simple to use in practice.  Also, I only had to purchase the tee and the 3-way valve.

    This may or may not work in your case, but I can report that there were never any issues with the pump (Henderson diaphragm).  It never clogged and I never needed to clean it.

    FWIW, I would have through hull valves on everything.  In a partial flooding situation the boat will flood once the sink is below the waterline.  A friend of mine lost his boat that way.

  • 29 Aug 2017 09:30
    Reply # 5053370 on 5008877

    My choice would be a barrel pump, with the body under the counter and a small hole drilled through the counter for the handle's leg to pass through (the handle will unscrew).  They are super expensive new, so I'm on the lookout for a second hand one.  (Subtle hint for people to look through their sheds!)  The plumbing is simple - a short pipe to the intake, a slightly longer one to the side of the boat.  A skin fitting and, if you want, a sea cock just in case.  The non-return valve in the pump is usually adequate to stop water coming back up - at least from my experience.  This is a neater arrangement, to my way of thinking, than a diaphragm pump and requires less room both to fit and to use.  Pumping uphill never appeared to be a problem.

    The ultimate simplicity of a bowl/bucket that empties over the side, as well as being a good way of losing cutlery, also loses its appeal when it's pouring with rain and cold outside. 

    Because the contents of the sink come out under pressure, most of it doesn't go down the side of the boat.  Being a vegetarian, I don't have animal fats to worry about.  If you were concerned, you could always insert a small pipe into the skin fitting on the outside.  Better just to go sailing more often and get the topsides well washed.  You don't need to put the pump outlet up at toerail height.

  • 28 Aug 2017 20:23
    Reply # 5052624 on 5052135
    Deleted user
    Scott Dufour wrote:

    David Thatcher:  I'd like to avoid the grey water, too. Maybe Annie's approach to going above the WL through the side? 


    I have never tried a direct pump out from the galley sink. I guess all that is needed is a simple diaphragm pump mounted on a cabinet side or a bulkhead and it would not require many strokes of the pump to empty a sink. There would be a bit of plumbing/piping involved and Annie would know best how such a pump would cope with food scraps. You could also have push-button operation with an electric pump, but that is starting to get away from the KISS principle. If the pump hull outlet was going to spend time underwater when on the heel you might want some sort of back flow preventer such as a siphon-break. The trouble is that it sounds as if you will be pumping uphill if the bottom of the sink is not much above the waterline. I think I would try and get the galley sink a bit higher up. Another option rather than a draining sink is to have a removable sink/bucket as the galley sink and when you have done washing up you heave the contents over the side. You might want plenty of spare cutlery if you went for this option!

    I once made my own Lavac type vacuum marine toilet using a big Jabsco diaphragm bilge pump and that worked very well. The pump sucked through all the solids that went down the toilet.

    Last modified: 28 Aug 2017 20:46 | Deleted user
  • 28 Aug 2017 14:01
    Reply # 5052135 on 5008877
    Deleted user

    David Thatcher:  I'd like to avoid the grey water, too. Maybe Annie's approach to going above the WL through the side? 

    Annie: Do I understand that you drain the sink directly by pumping it out? Do you use a simple skin fitting, or some trick to keep the sink contents from leaving a nasty trickly stain down the topsides?  I'm also guessing that when healing, you don't get the toerail in the water much.

    This weekend saw another bulkhead go in - the forward galley.  1/2" meranti marine ply - it was only 5% more expensive than the Douglas fir, and so much more lovely to look at.  After much squinting, I decided to extend this into the bilge so it runs vertically along the complete inboard end.  The rest of the galley will be framed as David mentions in his post below - sole first, then the lockers above.


    The forward side of this locker will also serve as the aft side of one of the two integral water tanks under each settee.  The forward head bulkhead will do the same thing on the port side.  With these two bulkheads in place, I can start laying out those tanks and mocking up the whole saloon layout. I'm having trouble visualizing what the whole thing will look like more than 4 steps in advance, so I have to design my way forward in some cases, crossing my fingers that I'll need to tear anything out due to a planning mistake.


    Here's an unexpected bonus- that little corner cut off on the galley bulkhead - that's to accommodate the end-cap-hand-hold I mentioned in an earlier post.  And it was also exactly how much bulkhead I needed to cut off in order to get the thing through the companionway in one piece.


    Last modified: 28 Aug 2017 14:13 | Deleted user
  • 26 Aug 2017 09:45
    Reply # 5049427 on 5008877

    I was speaking rationally rather than emotionally over the standpipe issue.  On odds, I tremble at the thought of a hole right through the bottom of my boat and am fairly sure that I'll go for the much-reviled sink pump, going out through the topsides.  And I'll fit one of David's valves just in case.  We had a pump on Badger, used it for the best part of 20 years and I don't recall it ever getting blocked.  You don't really need a plug, but you do waste a wee bit of water between the sink and the pump, so if you are using precious fresh water, it's worth having one.  I shall have salt water 'on tap' via a 10l jerrican.  It's a good thing to have it available to save fresh.  In summer, when we don't have much rain, water can be a bit of an issue in Northland, because there are very few public taps, which is an added incentive to be frugal with the sweet water. 

  • 26 Aug 2017 00:11
    Reply # 5048870 on 5045483
    Deleted user
    Scott Dufour wrote:

    Sink and drain:

    Huh.  I thought for certain that both Annie and David would favor the, "no hole below the waterline is better" approach.  But I get that a standpipe is certainly KISS.

    Compared to the original boat, I lowered the counter top 3 inches to accommodate my diminutive cook, and deepened the sink from 4 inches to 9 inches.  That puts the bottom of the sink about even with the top of the boot stripe.  The drains are about 2 feet from the centerline.  Is this enough for me to feel confident that I'm above water? Is that enough drop to ensure that gunk doesn't just hangout in the standpipe, freshwater being less dense and all?

    And no seacock?  I can imagine an emergency scenario where the boat has taken on enough water to lower it below the waterline, perhaps enough to get the top of the sink also below the waterline. That would be, oh - maybe two feet?  Am I needless concerned?


    I can see that you have put yourself in a difficult situation with the drain of the sink so close to the waterline. But certainly a 4 inch deep sink in a sea going boat is not a lot of use. A deep sink is much better as the water is more likely to stay in the sink in a seaway, and the deeper sink is also a handy place to store what is normally bench top clutter and needs to be put somewhere quickly when the going suddenly gets a bit rough.

    Having either owned or operated a lot of boats, (charter yacht fleets), my experiences with grey water sumps is that they are smelly and troublesome. I see nothing wrong with a good modern plastic thru-hull and sea cock. If well installed and made from quality materials they are unlikely to fail, unlike traditional bronze seacocks and through hulls which are prone to all sorts of problems. I once had a bronze thru-hull fall apart as I was trying to pull the engine cooling water inlet hose off the top of the seacock.

    When I first purchased Footprints the sinks drained into 20 litre jerry cans whch had to be emptied when full. I hated the system but put up with it for a couple of years in the interest of KISS and no tru-hulls below the waterline. However at my first proper haulout I fitted a thru-hull and seacock for both the sink drain and the galley saltwater inlet. I also fitted a thru hull drain for the vanity basin but that exits the hull above the waterline. In New Zealand we have available some very good plastic plastic valves which I think were probably designed for agricultural applications. These are 'Hansen' brand ball valves. Of course you also need good quality hose and hose clips.

    Last modified: 26 Aug 2017 00:57 | Deleted user
  • 24 Aug 2017 15:17
    Reply # 5045483 on 5008877
    Deleted user

    Sink and drain:

    Huh.  I thought for certain that both Annie and David would favor the, "no hole below the waterline is better" approach.  But I get that a standpipe is certainly KISS.

    Compared to the original boat, I lowered the counter top 3 inches to accommodate my diminutive cook, and deepened the sink from 4 inches to 9 inches.  That puts the bottom of the sink about even with the top of the boot stripe.  The drains are about 2 feet from the centerline.  Is this enough for me to feel confident that I'm above water? Is that enough drop to ensure that gunk doesn't just hangout in the standpipe, freshwater being less dense and all?

    And no seacock?  I can imagine an emergency scenario where the boat has taken on enough water to lower it below the waterline, perhaps enough to get the top of the sink also below the waterline. That would be, oh - maybe two feet?  Am I needless concerned?

    Bulkheads, liners, floors and structural support:

    There are four (five maybe? no picture at the moment and memory is weak) timber floors heavily glassed in across the shallow bilge, the keel held on with large monel bolts into the hull (not though the floors). The original liner was about 2 inches above these, and weakly tabbed into the hull, so I think you're right David - it didn't do much for the structure.  Thank you for the confirmation. 

    Based on your and Annie's feedback - I think that it may be best for me to concentrate on laying in the sole before I put in any more bulkheads.  It will certainly make it easier to move around and plan where all the bits an pieces should fall.

    I had gotten it in my head that bulkheads must go in first to add stiffness- that came out of a book on interior fitting.  But perhaps that was more geared toward wooden hulls and a bit too old school.

  • 24 Aug 2017 14:15
    Reply # 5045351 on 5044526
    Annie Hill wrote:

    Is the bottom of the sink below the waterline?  If not, an alternative is a simple standpipe down through the bottom of the boat.  Done properly, this is structurally sound, simple and fool proof.  David Tyler has fitted them in both wooden and fibreglass boats.

    I like these. If they are near the centreline, with their upper ends above the waterline, they are safe and need no valves. The sink should be near the centreline anyway, so that it doesn't fill up on the "wrong" tack.

    They are made by selecting a suitable size of copper tube and wrapping it in glass cloth and resin, increasing the thickness substantially near the hull; then filleting and glassing in.

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