Flat, hinged or cambered?

  • 27 Aug 2018 17:13
    Reply # 6640788 on 461931
    Deleted user

    My little junk sail has split battens screwed together through the sail with two sided carpet tape on both batten halves, I can't recommend it as it's pretty obvious that the sailcloth needs to be able to shift at least a bit on the batten to set properly.

    Even not working properly it's not a bad sail.


    Bill

  • 27 Aug 2018 13:50
    Reply # 6640434 on 461931
    Well,

    fortunately I have nothing to compare to regarding the amount of work needed. As of yet I have only made two junk sails and used hinges in both of them...

    But I guess one needs maybe twice the amount of work and time (spent on batten pockets versus hinges, not the whole sail) to make the sail using this method. Let's not forget that there are some benefits too, especially with handling of the sail while sewing.

    Rigging the sail needs more work (again a guess), than a one-part sail. 

    One of the benefits is also the possibility of taking apart only one panel - for repairs, for example. Or in my Galion 22's case, probably taking off one panel for good (and save it as a spare). Of course one could sew a spare panel or two in purpose before an ocean crossing, too, and change them at sea, if need be. 

    I didn't measure the time I spent with the newer sail, and I have no good guess, either. And we have to remember, that I was also learning to understand the broadseaming at the same time. This cost time, too.

    Comparing the two sails (Joe 17 and Galion 22) is quite difficult, because the cloth is/was very different. The first was 90 g/sqm and quite stretchy, the latter 190 g and doesn not stretch (almost) at all. This was also the reason to use broadseaming.

    EDIT: I added a brief video of the Galion's sail. Lets's not discuss the still undone topping lifts and other inferior, unfinished details...

    (Off topic: what doesn't stop amazing me with these two different boats is the balance of the 500kg stud-keel/centerbord Joe 17 with my JR. I was able to sail even dead downwind with a simple sheet-to tiller steering for hours and hours. And now I struggle with the unstable steering of the Galion 22, which has a longish keel... go figure.)

    Last modified: 27 Aug 2018 16:45 | Anonymous member
  • 27 Aug 2018 10:00
    Reply # 6640154 on 461931
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Jami,

    Like David, I too think this 'hinge' connection between batten panels, which Roger Taylor introduced, is a strong and dependable method. Although it surely will take more time than batten pockets, both to construct and to rig first time, the work is straightforward with no particularly difficult steps. Even I could do this. The method later gives one easy access to the battens anywhere, so two battens could easily be lashed together to ‘reef out‘ any damage at sea. For a serious long-distance sail, this may well be my method of choice (..except that I am a daysailor...).

    Now I had a look at the Youtube clips of your first boat and then of the photo of your new one. I notice that you have added broadseams to the new sail. Have you any comments to the difference in the two sails’ setting or behaviour?

    Arne

    PS: About how long did it take you to construct your sails?


    Last modified: 27 Aug 2018 10:04 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 27 Aug 2018 08:40
    Reply # 6640057 on 6640054
    Jami wrote:And there is also the option of separate panels and webbing or sailcloth hinges/loops/tabs (pick a term of your liking) as brought up by Roger Taylor. I also used this method on two sails already. 
    Yes,I'd forgotten this one. Sound, strong, functional and a good way of making a sail in a limited space, but probably one of the more labour-intensive methods.
  • 27 Aug 2018 08:34
    Reply # 6640056 on 6639667
    Annie wrote:
    David Tyler wrote:Webbing loops, with or without a cloth cover to match in with the sail
    Would be my favourite, although I'd refer to them as 'tabs' or strips.  It's like a very short section of batten pocket, sewn top and bottom.  They are much easier to fit on sails with vertical seams, but much more to the point, they are ideal for offshore work where you may end up wanting to remove a batten at sea.

    Short pockets can claim the same slight advantage when replacing a batten, and I think they're a little quicker to add than webbing tabs (but slower than full length pockets). Also, they can use up more of the scraps and short ends left after cutting out the panels.
    Much easier to fit webbing tabs than pockets? I can't see why. 
  • 27 Aug 2018 08:34
    Reply # 6640054 on 461931
    And there is also the option of separate panels and webbing or sailcloth hinges/loops/tabs (pick a term of your liking) as brought up by Roger Taylor. I also used this method on two sails already. 
  • 27 Aug 2018 08:21
    Reply # 6640040 on 6639557
    Arne wrote:

    Jim,

    frankly, I would only use wood (spruce ?) if I had to, for battens. I have read about too many breakages, and they appear to happen during gybes.

    My hunch about this is that a fairly heavy and compact wooden batten, combined with its stiff and not too strong material (compared to aluminium, grp or bamboo) makes it vulnerable to the jerks at the end of half-long gybes.

    Arne

    These (aluminium, GRP, bamboo) being in the form of a round tube, putting all the material precisely where it's needed, is the main point. A wooden batten could be quite strong if it were laminated from two or more layers cut from different pieces of stock, thus eliminating continuous non-longitudinal grain, but it will always be at the disadvantage of worse strength/weight ratio when compared with a tube. Unless, of course, you make a tube out of wood. Not impossible, but a pointless exercise if you can buy good tubes off the shelf.
  • 27 Aug 2018 08:07
    Reply # 6640026 on 6639714
    Jim wrote:
     But don't underestimate the amount of cloth it takes to make them, it's surprising how much extra, on top of the sail area; make a full calculation before ordering.
    All things considered, what would be the difference in cost be, between a pocketed sail and a non-pocketed sail?
    There are way too many variables even to attempt a calculation, but if cost is important, then I'd offer the guess that pockets would cost less, as using grommets means buying them and their setting tool (not cheap) plus enough extra cloth for the batten-length strip of patching that they need underneath them, plus cordage. A double layer of patching equates with the amount of cloth needed for a pocket.
  • 26 Aug 2018 23:33
    Reply # 6639714 on 6639264
     But don't underestimate the amount of cloth it takes to make them, it's surprising how much extra, on top of the sail area; make a full calculation before ordering.


    All things considered, what would be the difference in cost be, between a pocketed sail and a non-pocketed sail?
  • 26 Aug 2018 21:58
    Reply # 6639667 on 6639264
    David Tyler wrote:Webbing loops, with or without a cloth cover to match in with the sail
    Would be my favourite, although I'd refer to them as 'tabs' or strips.  It's like a very short section of batten pocket, sewn top and bottom.  They are much easier to fit on sails with vertical seams, but much more to the point, they are ideal for offshore work where you may end up wanting to remove a batten at sea.  With full-length pockets, you need to get the batten out from either luff or leach, which can be more than a little precarious. With tabs you just push the batten forward or aft until the end is at a convenient point in the sail and then slide it the other direction outside all the tabs.  Easier to put back in, too, because you don't actually have to have the sail stretched flat to do so (and it's not the end of the world if you miss one of them).

    And you can see the battens clearly, which might be useful with wooden battens.


    Last modified: 26 Aug 2018 21:59 | Anonymous member
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