A tied hybrid system for junk rigs -- can it work?

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  • 23 Jun 2015 01:29
    Reply # 3399950 on 3399932
    Annie Hill wrote: I'm not sure that you've quite followed Richard's idea.  What I believe he is suggesting is that subtle adjustment of the length of the lacings would effectively produce camber.

    Just so. Although it might also produce scalloping, flapping, and drag!

    I suspect he doesn't intend to use stainless steel battens, but would use alloy.
    Aluminium alloy tubes. They need to be smooth and circular to allow the loops to slip round when tacking. However, they might also suffer from chafe over time from those same loops, comparable with the effect parrels have on masts.
    Frankly, I can't imagine anyone trying to change panels between battens while offshore.  It would be an horrendous job with the boat bouncing around, the sail swinging and one trying to tie a bit of string, not tight, but to a certain length.  I don't think the little toggle grips would prove to be strong enough from having used them over the years.  But it's an interesting concept.
    I'm not really imagining changing panels under normal circumstances when offshore, but only if a batten breaks or a panel is torn. The idea about changing panels was really about trying out a slotted rig, doing other experiments, or perhaps changing from a passage to coastal rig.  That would most likely happen in harbour.  Likewise adjusting camber, although I think it would be more feasible.

    Those toggles are surprisingly strong, and the load would be spread quite a long way. The real question is whether small constant movement makes them give up, so that the panels would become baggier and baggier. Or whether the springs rust in sea air. I'll have to devise a test.

    Last modified: 23 Jun 2015 01:31 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Jun 2015 01:19
    Reply # 3399934 on 3399298

    Please don't worry about pointing out that it won't work or has been done before. That's the sort of thing I want to know! I thought of it on a Friday and spent the weekend musing about it while sailing, so I didn't really expect to start a revolution.

    However the first two replies are somewhat contradictory. Do the Thai junks suffer from high heel? If Aphrodite worked fine, how did it compare to other schemes?

    Roger Taylor says the gaps in his HHH sail didn't seem to have any detremental effect, though the gaps in my scheme are likely to be quite a lot larger. I might see if I can make a model and see how much difference I can find. If the loss of lift and gain in drag outweigh the camber then there really is no point.

    Last modified: 23 Jun 2015 01:21 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Jun 2015 01:18
    Reply # 3399932 on 3399909
    Paul Thompson wrote:

    Richard, sorry to disillusion you but the Thais have used that system on their junks since time immoral,

    I say, Oracle, that's a bit thick.  I don't believe the Thais have ever been significantly worse than the rest of us.

    although on much bigger junks than yours. There was even an artical about it in one of the early News Letters (> 40) but I no longer remember the exact one. I tried out a more hi-tec system of the same type when I rigged Carl Bostek's Aphrodite. It worked fine but in the end I did not really see any point in it. 

    I'm not sure that you've quite followed Richard's idea.  What I believe he is suggesting is that subtle adjustment of the length of the lacings would effectively produce camber.  I suspect he doesn't intend to use stainless steel battens, but would use alloy.  Frankly, I can't imagine anyone trying to change panels between battens while offshore.  It would be an horrendous job with the boat bouncing around, the sail swinging and one trying to tie a bit of string, not tight, but to a certain length.  I don't think the little toggle grips would prove to be strong enough from having used them over the years.  But it's an interesting concept.
  • 23 Jun 2015 01:07
    Reply # 3399927 on 3399298

    On a regular wing or sail, an area of significant loss of efficiency (compared to a theoretical infinite wingspan) are the wing tip losses.  At the wing tip the high pressure air below the wing moves to the low pressure above the wing by skirting around the tip of the wing/sail.  This creates a turbulent vortex and a loss of efficiency referred to as induced drag.  By lashing each panel to each batten, with an according air gap between each panel and each batten, you will have effectively created the situation where every panel is suffering from "tip losses" above and below each panel.  So I think you would see less lift (drive) and more drag (heeling of boat) as a result of this sail design.

    Sorry to be a killjoy, Darren

  • 23 Jun 2015 01:00
    Reply # 3399909 on 3399298

    Richard, sorry to disillusion you but the Thais have used that system on their junks since time immoral, although on much bigger junks than yours. There was even an artical about it in one of the early News Letters (> 40) but I no longer remember the exact one. I tried out a more hi-tec system of the same type when I rigged Carl Bostek's Aphrodite. It worked fine but in the end I did not really see any point in it. 

  • 22 Jun 2015 16:17
    Message # 3399298

    I would very much appreciate feedback on my idea for a tied hybrid system for junk rigs from the esteemed and experienced folks of the JRA.

    I won't repeat the whole post here -- please click above for a description and a detailed diagram -- but to quote myself:

    The idea is simple: cut the main panels flat with reinforced seams with eyelets. Then tie the panels to the battens with loops of cord. By adjusting the lengths of the loops you can adjust the camber of the sail in pretty much any way you like.

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