Finding Center of Effort

  • 25 Feb 2014 09:04
    Reply # 1505319 on 1503494
    (Edit by moderator:  Please note that there is a General Forum thread on this topic.  I have copied this post to that thread.   Please place any further discussion of this matter there.  Graham Cox)
     
    Corey, A word of warning, if I may. Before purchasing the downloadable copy of PJR, if you can, get a sample of the book and see if it works on whatever electronic device you are using. I was going to download a Kindle version. PJR has lots of diagrams but these rarely are on the same page as the text you are reading and entails a lot of flicking back and forward to study the diagram and corresponding text. Not sure how good the Barnes and Noble edition is for flicking back and forward, but the Kindle was too cumbersome, and too small. I bought the paper book in the end and even then it can sometimes be awkward tracking the diagram with the text which may be 2-3 chapters away. Your Barnes & Noble version may be fine. Just try and sample it first. Other than that, the paper is brilliant.
    Last modified: 25 Feb 2014 23:58 | Anonymous member
  • 22 Feb 2014 18:10
    Reply # 1503725 on 1503494
    Deleted user
    Thanks Arne I'm catching on. I read that CE and CLP calculations are really only best guess estimations which explains why a balanced paper cut out works close enough and why you can ignore roach. In fact I could see how the balanced paper cut out could give a more accurate best guess.
  • 22 Feb 2014 15:52
    Reply # 1503649 on 1503494
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Corey

    Just as the CE, Centre of Effort, is the geometrical centre of the sail, the CLR, Centre of Lateral Resistance, is the geometrical centre of the underwater profile. On very regular shapes, such as triangles  and rectangles, it is easy to find their centres, just by drawing the right lines (see a math book on this). However, the method with balancing the sail or hull profile on a ruler is much more useful with irregular shapes. You could even find the geometrical centre of Texas (.. or Pennsylvania ...) using this method.

    Just remember that the actual CP, Centre of Pressure, in a sail is not quite the same as the  CE . The CP will move a bit around depending of the setting of the sail (angle of incidence etc.), and will generally sit somewhere forward of the CE. Likewise, the CP of the underwater profile will sit somewhere forward of the CLR. All this means that guessing on the Lead , the distance of CE forward of the CLR, can be difficult and lead to surprises (too much weather helm or lee helm).

    On a dinghy it is normally a forgiving business. Dinghies generally have huge rudders (relatively speaking) compared to the rudders of a ten ton cruiser, so a bit extra weather helm can be controlled by the rudder without big rudder angles needed.

    Arne 

    Last modified: 22 Feb 2014 16:16 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 22 Feb 2014 15:14
    Reply # 1503638 on 1503494
    Deleted user
    Thanks David, haven't gotten my copy of PJR yet. Found the $40 Barns and Knoble download version but was waiting to know what this site has to offer first. I guess its essential. Thanks Arne, and thanks for all the articles and work you have shared. I'm not as fond of monohulls as my dad was but your oslojolle looks like a perfect daysailor. Not many/any oslojolles around here so I'm looking for a 6 or 6.5 m sailing dinghy to do just the same thing to. I didn't understand the picture link you referred to. Are you saying that CE, CLR and geometrical center are, for the purposes of sailboat design, interchangeable?
  • 22 Feb 2014 08:07
    Reply # 1503549 on 1503494
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Corey

     

    This photo shows an easy way of finding the geometrical centre of an irregular shape, in this case the CLR of a hull. I use just the same method for finding then CE (geometrical centre) of a junk sail. By balancing the paper in two directions, the centre is where the two lines cross. Easy  -  just cut the sail out of sufficiently stiff paper.

    Good luck!

     

    Arne

    Last modified: 17 Apr 2022 16:50 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 22 Feb 2014 05:00
    Reply # 1503513 on 1503494
    Deleted user
    Have you had a chance to read practical Junk Rig yet? The book outlines a simple method of finding the CE of a junk sail, but the whole book is essential reading to understanding how a junk rig works and how to design a junk rig. The book is referred to as the junk Bible and it really is worthy of that title.
  • 22 Feb 2014 04:03
    Message # 1503494
    Deleted user
    Hi all,  new to this stuff so be kind.  How do you find the CE for a junk sail?  Do you treat it as a Gaff?  I find nothing with Google searches and this forum doesn't seem to have a dedicated search.  I fell for the Wharram Tiki catamarans.  After seeing the PHA, Grand PHA and Apatiki i want to learn more.  Thanks. 
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
                                                               - the Chinese Water Rat

                                                              Site contents © the Junk Rig Association and/or individual authors

Powered by Wild Apricot Membership Software