How does one sail a schooner to windward? (Touches on motor-sailing too.)

  • 22 Oct 2013 16:31
    Reply # 1418987 on 1417956
    Deleted user
    Hi John, we are still learning tacking, have a 50% success rate so far. But thats with the sea anchor attached (OB and no plug in the well), might come easier when that problem is sorted. We dont have wind instruments, but looking at the windex on top of the mast, sometimes its pointing only 20 or 30˚ off the bow. So it can crawl really close to the wind, at 2 knots. I dont recall our old bermudian doing that. Yes, weather helm (or lee helm) is easy to fix on these boats, no excuse to suffer them.

    Arne: re: halyard, I may try going to each mast to raise the last couple of panels, in protected waters before hitting the exposed coast. Out there I'm not so keen, need a winch or 2 :)
    Last modified: 22 Oct 2013 16:43 | Deleted user
  • 22 Oct 2013 15:24
    Reply # 1418927 on 1417956
    Deleted user
    Good morning! It sounds like you are doing quite well. For comparison, here is how we do it: First up is the foresail. Then main half-way and balance. Then up goes the jib (scandalous! But we have one). Then main all the way and point as well as possible. We are getting performance 3-4 kts on the wind in the 8-10 kts of the Potomac River. But we can't get closer to the wind than these folks have mentioned. We found our Sea Anchor, and it was the rudder. We learned how to tell if the rudder was straight to avoid the sails being unbalanced with the rudder compensating.

    With regard to David Tyler's observation about the foresail, how has tacking been for you?
  • 22 Oct 2013 14:50
    Reply # 1418899 on 1417956
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Tuesday

    When we are two on board my Johanna, I usually go forward and hoist the sail by the mast, with the crew hauling the fall back into the cockpit. This sail of 48sqm (40 - 50kg) goes up fairly easily, this way. Even though the (5-part) halyard only passes one extra friction point when hoisting the sail from the cockpit (the block at the mast partners), it is much harder work, so I just barely get up 5 panels by hand, and must winch up the two last. Later adjustments of sail area is always done from the cockpit, either by hand, or, more often, with the winch.

     

    Arne

     

    Last modified: 22 Oct 2013 14:54 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 22 Oct 2013 09:01
    Reply # 1418755 on 1418734
    Deleted user
    Paul Thompson wrote:I can pull LC's main all the way up by hand. Main is about 450 sq.ft. on a three to one purchase. Last two panels are hard but then I'm not particularly strong. I suspect those Fay parrels  and especially those deck organizers add a lot of friction. All leads should be as straight and go through as few blocks as you can possibly make them.
    The foresail is much easier than the main, the difference is the fore has less blocks to go through, and the battens are lighter (thinner walled). The Fay parrels if sheaved with retic hosing dont have so much friction.
  • 22 Oct 2013 06:51
    Reply # 1418734 on 1418448
    Gary King wrote:The only reason why the sails weren't perfect all day was because of the lack of winches. I cant speak for friction since I've never used a PJR parrel'd rig, the first 5 or 6 panels (of a 7 panel sail) go up by hand, best to use a winch for the rest, but I think this is normal on other boats of similar size.
    I can pull LC's main all the way up by hand. Main is about 410 sq.ft. on a three to one purchase. Last two panels are hard but then I'm not particularly strong. I suspect those Fay parrels  and especially those deck organizers add a lot of friction. All leads should be as straight and go through as few blocks as you can possibly make them.
    Last modified: 22 Oct 2013 19:41 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Oct 2013 22:57
    Reply # 1418448 on 1417956
    Deleted user
    ..about the fixed luff parrels.

    I followed Paul Fay's website. Rigged without any running parrels (except on the yard). He even suggests a fixed throat parrel (which means he hasnt tried it), so I did, it works fine.

    1/ Each batten has 1 batten parrel & 1 luff parrel, fixed. 
    2/ The yard has a running, combined yard and throat parrel.

    No HK parrels.
    (Batten no.1 didnt get a luff parrel, its so close to the yard I thought it didnt need one.)

    I added 2 spans of downhauls to the foresail on the morning of yesterday's voyage, but they didnt seem to help much. The main needed one though.

    Looking at our sails, with no major creases, I can't see the point of adding any other lines. The only reason why the sails weren't perfect all day was because of the lack of winches. I cant speak for friction since I've never used a PJR parrel'd rig, the first 5 or 6 panels (of a 7 panel sail) go up by hand, best to use a winch for the rest, but I think this is normal on other boats of similar size.

    PS the fixed parrel on batten #3 is too loose, as can be seen in above linked pic, thus the less than perfect set of panel #3. Must get around to that..
    Last modified: 21 Oct 2013 23:39 | Deleted user
  • 21 Oct 2013 22:20
    Reply # 1418410 on 1417956
    Deleted user
    Thanks for the replies.

    Thinking about the performance last 3 days (thats how many times she's been out), the oddness of her performance, broad reaching at only 4 or 5 knots, and sails IMHO looking good despite that, and not having the feeling of accelerating down swells etc..  implies it's the hull, there's a sea anchor somewhere.
    She's only ever been sailing with the OB down in the well, mainly because I havent mastered the art of hauling it with the sails up. (need to move the tiller aside to do this & that creates havoc.) I prefer not to stow the OB before raising sail, since its all lee shores around here. Yes, it has a 8 1/2" hi thrust prop.

    BTW the sails may look over sheeted in the pic, but we tried all kinds of angles and courses. Easing the sheets, the cambered panels backed pretty fast. The boat still remained slightly slower than our old 24' sloop. We preferred 2.5-3.2knots 45˚ to the wind over 2.8-3.5kt at 50˚. Also, telltales on the foresail of a schooner are useless going to windward, can't see them.

    Anyway, we've learnt something else new today, & in my rusty mind I think I've read Annie saying this, releasing the sheets stops her in her tracks, and is a window to haul up the OB. Couple of options is to use the plug (for the well) since I have one, and bolt on a trucker mud flap around the OB's cavitation plate.
    Last modified: 21 Oct 2013 22:22 | Deleted user
  • 21 Oct 2013 20:33
    Reply # 1418291 on 1417956
    Gary, judging from the photo, I'd say that you are over sheeting your sails. Which means you point high but don't foot.

    On LC (I'm still very much learning) the main is very much the dominant sail and over sheeting it will drive the bow to the windward. I also find that I put a reef or two in the main before I do anything with the foresail.

    When trimming, I sheet the main harder than the foresail and I sheet just enough to settle the sails. I then check the SOG and use it as a guide to fine tune the trim.

    On LC we are able to point in the 35° to 45° ((from the wind instruments) depending on how smooth the water is) and make between 3.5 to 4.5 kts. On a few occasions we have managed to get 5kts but it's so far, not the norm. Of cause offshore, she will not point like this. Still I have been very pleasantly surprised at how well LC goes to the windward, remember she is a heavy (8.5ton) full keeled double-ender.

    Some have said that putting 10% camber in the main and 12% camber in the foresail was to much (and I had a few doubts myself) but after now having done some sailing, I'm happy with what I have done. The rig is powerful, yet the boat can handle it. And her performance has surprised a few (including myself).

    PS. You appear to be using Graham's fixed luff parrels, hows it working? Maybe you could make a posting describing how you've rigged your sail. It's always interesting and there's always something to learn.
    Last modified: 21 Oct 2013 21:44 | Anonymous member
  • 21 Oct 2013 16:58
    Reply # 1418111 on 1417956
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Gary

    Didn't you fit  your boat with an outboard engine with a high-thrust propeller, or am I wrong? If you did, then remember that a hi-thrust propeller turns into a hi-drag propeller as soon as you stop it.

    My hi-thrust propeller on  Johanna is 11 3/4 " with 3 wide blades, so sailing with that down is almost equivalent with dragging a little bucket  -  no good when close-hauled.

    Arne

  • 21 Oct 2013 16:32
    Reply # 1418073 on 1417956
    Looking at the photo, it may be that you were trying a bit too hard to point high, with the foresail sheeted in a bit too much. I would expect that when beating into 20 knots in the open sea, you should aim to achieve 4 knots at 100 degrees tacking angle on the compass ( more like 120 degrees on the GPS, taking leeway into account). You should do better on flat water. The mainsail was reefed, so it wouldn't have been weather helm that was stopping you, but certainly dragging the prop through the water doesn't help.
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