Why try for a light mast (stability, mast weight and rolling)

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  • 08 Mar 2014 14:00
    Reply # 1513331 on 1313268
    My boat was originally a topmasted gaff cutter, and in theory I thought that would be the best solution to the problem of how stiff/tender a boat should be. My mainmast was short and heavy, and the topmast went up another 7 metres or so, and was also pretty heavy, solid Doug fir. It was fidded so it could be "housed" by lowering it so the butt was near deck level, and secured with ropes. 

    On the positive side, it worked well in that it was like having 3 different boats. With the topmast up the boat was tender and handled heavy seas in light wind, a common thing on the British Columbia coast, with a slow period of roll, and I could set a lot of sail. Problem was, I didn't like getting caught in a squall with all that windage and so many sails to get down in a hurry. Housing or stowing the topmast while at sea turned out to be impractical. It wasn't too difficult to do while at anchor in a calm harbour, but I never even attempted it at sea. In the old days when life was cheap they would send a seaman aloft to pull the fid out, but I never dared, and would definitely not ask anyone else to do it.

    Before I left to go cruising offshore I made the decision to leave the topmast behind, and put up with a boat a little on the stiff side. I rolled more than I would like in moderate conditions, but was grateful for the high righting moment when the weather got heavy. I never once went to bare poles in years of sailing, some of it pretty blowy. The downside was that light conditions were hard on my sails and rigging, and on me.

    My new rig is going to be 3 masted, and I'm estimating that my new rig will be roughly half the weight of the old one, all 3 of them will weigh quite a bit less than the single solid fir one I had, plus the heavy standing rigging. The downside will be increased windage, or "top hamper", probably 30% to 40% more. I've come to mistrust theory and calculation when it comes to boats and rigging, buoyancy can be accurately calculated if you have the hull lines, but factors like weight and windage are always an educated guess at best. And how well an idea will work in practice is often not quite as good as it looks on paper. I expect my boat to be considerably on the stiff side but I don't plan to do any adjustment of the ballasting without some real world trials.

    I feel that one of the most important considerations in how stiff or tender a boat ought to be is the point at which the boat must go to bare poles. That's a downfall of many modern boat and rigs, they're too tall for heavy weather and I know quite a few of them are taking it all down in as little as 35 knots of wind, unacceptable for offshore sailing in my opinion. I doubt there is any accurate way to calculate that, because every boat and rig is different, and the size and displacement of the boat will make a large difference as well. 

    Summing up, I think the right amount of stiffness is a matter of the kind of boat you have and the kind of sailing you do. Inshore and coastal sailors may prefer a more tender boat and are less likely to experience severe weather, at the expense of some speed. For people who like racing, stiffer will generally be better. For offshore sailing heavy weather is inevitable and the minimum righting moment should be enough to carry a small storm sail in storm force, without getting bowled over by the gusts. Too much can be just as bad, in the old days they were very careful to load sailing ships correctly, stowing the cargo too low could shake the rigging right out of the ship. I plan to do the rolling test and inclining test as well as sea trials in high winds, before deciding how much is right.
    Last modified: 20 Oct 2014 23:46 | Anonymous member
  • 06 Jul 2013 21:26
    Reply # 1334464 on 1313268
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Stavanger, Sat

              Added inertia in the pitch plane - not so good

    Lots of brain power has been focused here on increasing the capsize screen by raising the inertia of the boat in the roll plane. The big factor is the inertia of the mast(s).

    However, although the mast’s inertia is welcome in the roll plane, it is not so in the pitch plane. A heavy, tall mast, fitted far forward will make the boat less willing to climb the waves when close-hauled. The result is loss of speed and a wet boat. Of course, in the pitch plane the boat itself is the major contributor of inertia, but the mast adds quite a bit to it.

    Conclusion: Moderation in all things...

    Cheers, Arne

    Last modified: 06 Jul 2013 21:27 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 06 Jul 2013 09:23
    Reply # 1334214 on 1313268
    I'm not entirely sure that a 'lightweight' junk rig, such as I fitted to Fantail will be heavier than your existing rig.  After I fitted my new rig, my boat floated about 20 mm higher than before.  It will be well worth while doing your sums on this.  Yes, more sail area will conceivably weigh more, especially taking into account the battens, but of course, most of that weight will be low down in heavy conditions, whereas your wires, tangs, roller furler, etc, etc will still all be up there.

    My sail - on its own - weighs about 10 k - considerably lighter than the bermudian mainsail which was quite a struggle to lift and carry.  And there was a jib, too.

    Tedious, I know, but as you are not only changing the rig, but hoping also to alter the comfort of the vessel at sea, I think you are going to have to weigh or estimate as accurately as possible, all the components of both your existing rig and your planned junk rig.  As you say, an interesting exercise.
  • 05 Jul 2013 21:23
    Reply # 1334015 on 1313268
    Deleted user
    Well I can experiment and then have a fair idea of what effect extra weight will have.  From that I can work out what sort of mast would best suit the yacht in regards to comfort and performance.  
    I guess the Junk Rig would be heavier than my current rig, especially as I want to increase the sail area so good to get an idea of how far I can go.  Not difficult to experiment like this , fun actually.  Great to have a forum to throw ideas about and get experienced , thought ful ideas to consider, thanks kindly.
  • 05 Jul 2013 09:20
    Reply # 1333557 on 1313268
    Deleted user
    Ok, so you are sailing her. Looks like you found your solution.
  • 05 Jul 2013 08:39
    Reply # 1333548 on 1313268
    Deleted user
    Only my seat of the pants impression Gary.  Nothing scientific here.  I was  around 5 miles out to sea in an offshore breeze of around 15 knots.  I could not see any difference but the slower motion.  I t takes a lot to heel this yacht.  I was using my largest genoa and the mainsail without a reef, probably heeling to 10 degrees.  We put a reef in later on when the wind increased to 25 knots.  Definite improvement in her motion.  We are expecting good sailing this weekend so I'll get out amongst it and test some more.
  • 05 Jul 2013 06:36
    Reply # 1333530 on 1333510
    Deleted user
    Pete Rasmussen wrote:Thats not my experience so far Gary.  She seems to heel exactly as before but has the sharp edges removed, so to speak.  
    But how did you test the heel? If moored the increased inertia would prevent it from heeling too much to each wave, which is the point. But while sailing it will more than likely be heeling more.


    Last modified: 05 Jul 2013 06:40 | Deleted user
  • 05 Jul 2013 05:44
    Reply # 1333522 on 1313268
    Deleted user
    I found this from John Vigor in "Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat.
    " there are limits to how much inertia you can induce with a heavy mast, and there are penalties to be paid.  Inertia will slow down the jerky, frenzied rolling of a boatrunning in the trade winds and let her tick slowly from side to side like the pendulum on an old grandfather clock.  But if she falls into a rhythm with the swells that amplifies the the distance of her roll, you will end up with that sickening feelingthat shes going to keep rolling over forever and will never recover"
    And
    " a mast with too much inertia is detrimental to windward work........she will tend to hobbyhorse".
    There must be a few formula for this but I have not heard of one except Arne's 3% of displacement formula.
    Last modified: 05 Jul 2013 08:41 | Deleted user
  • 05 Jul 2013 05:03
    Reply # 1333510 on 1313268
    Deleted user
    Thats not my experience so far Gary.  She seems to heel exactly as before but has the sharp edges removed, so to speak.  I'm going to keep the weight aloft for a while so i'll be able to make more informed comments later. It would be interesting to keep adding weight until it becomes a liability to see where the limit is.  I'm wondering if the "inertia" of weight aloft  will help light displacement vessels in a similar way or if they can't carry it, that is it has a negative effect.
    Annie the reason I said " heavy displacement yachts are generally safe" is that I had just finished reading the above linked article by Michael Kasten in which an example is given from the 1979 Fastnet race where apparently the deeply ballasted light displacement yachts  really suffered and the heavy displacement yachts kept their crew safer and more comfortable. Now that was an extreme event unlikely to be encountered by cruising sailers, surely.  They were racing yachts with super light rigs no doubt.   Sure light displacement and heavy can be safe and thats been proven.  I like heavy displacement double enders because they surf well and I'm a surfer, lifelong.  I was not disparaging light displacement, can't as I don't have the experience to comment.  Anyway "its not the ships but the women  in them".
    Last modified: 05 Jul 2013 06:05 | Deleted user
  • 05 Jul 2013 04:30
    Reply # 1333492 on 1333341
    Deleted user
    Pete Rasmussen wrote:I believe inertia is one of the forces in effect here.  We can play with this!  So even a lttle weight hauled to the top of the mast will have an effect that will be felt, experienced as a slowing down of her motion and a resistance to get initiated into motion ( inertia).  I'm interested in how this would be experienced on a tender hull.
    I'd say a tender hull already has good roll resistance. Since the act of curing an uncomfortable hull results in making it more tender.
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