Rig design for new Benford Badger

  • 15 Jan 2022 19:12
    Reply # 12265400 on 12237755

    After some measuring, I'm happy to report that the situation is far better than I had remembered which is the problem when you've been working on a project for 10+ years...

    Though I wasn't able to achieve the original main mast location, I did get it about 6" forward of the designed position.  Hopefully that makes the design easy enough to accommodate without a ton of effort.

    I'll follow up with Paul Thompson, in addition to Boswell Design and Segelmacherei Tuchwerkstatt.

  • 06 Jan 2022 04:07
    Reply # 12242788 on 12242043
    Anonymous wrote:

    Hi John, Annie brought your message to my attention. I can help you. I'm based in New Zealand but have clients worldwide. I design rigs, do conversions and make sails. You can find out more about me in the latest JRA mag as Graham Cox has written an article on myself and my activities.

    My email address is in the members dictionary, if you would like to contact me.

    Perfect, I'll read the article and get in touch!

  • 06 Jan 2022 04:06
    Reply # 12242785 on 12241374
    Anonymous wrote:

    As there are a few people who have the same design, at least some of the numbers will be floating around. However, there is some information missing.

    A) As you have not obtained the masts, or even engineered them yet, Are you planning to keep them in the same position or would it be just as easy to move them back to original? (there will be more people who know the original)

    B) assuming you need to keep the masts in the altered position, perhaps if you shared what details you do have: Sail area, Aspect ratio, mast height, placement, keel shape and placement, any other information you have.

    C) the Badgers junk rig has generally been based on standard HM rigs. Is this the case? Can you post a picture of the new design?

    The AK cambered sail plans, which have most of the math done already, have the same shape and balance (mast placement) as the HM sails. So given the AR and sail area, it should be possible to just "pick" one of his "pre-engineered" drawings by AR and scale for area. In other words, given a flat sail plan, the panels can be the same shape (outside dimensions don't change) with camber added via broad seam or barrel shaping the top and bottom. A sail maker will prefer broad seam or shelf foot as they make their product look better.

    Masts are more of a problem. I would assume you have mast height and probably some more info for wood masts as the badgers are designed for wood masts. As you may have read in other posts, people who make tapered aluminum poles (generally flag poles) are generally not willing to have them used as masts. This means self engineering their flag poles to choose ones that will work for you and buying flag 

    Thanks, this is helpful.

    I don't have the sail design handy at the moment but will track it down and attempt to scan/post.  They were drawn out, but I don't have a digital version and don't recall if there was enough detail that they would have been ready to build.

    For the masts, I did have what literally looked like some back of the envelope calculations that included spun aluminum diameters, taper, wall thickness, etc.  Given the unknown source and background behind the engineering, I wanted to start from scratch with the calculations.  These details may be with the plan so I'll post when I find them.

    The companionway hatch would have to be redesigned if I moved the mast, and the deck beams and doubling layers were specifically modified to account for the slightly forward mast positioning.  For those reasons, I was pretty set on keeping the masts in their planned locations.  The fore mast remained in the originally designed location so there wasn't going to be a change there.

    I did some initial contact with some pole suppliers when I got the boat in 2010 and recall that at least a couple didn't want to sell to me.  That has remained in the back of my mind since and I'm crossing my fingers that there is at least one place in the USA that I could talk into making them for me.  I have not yet done any research on the forum about the current state of affairs in the mast buying world...

     Good to know about AK cambered plans being a mostly drop in replacement for a flat design.  I was concerned about changing center of balance of the sails if I went that route and was another reason I wanted to get some more experienced input on the design.  At least with two sails, I figured I'd have some flexibility with getting the balance correct.

    John



  • 06 Jan 2022 03:46
    Reply # 12242751 on 12239478
    I don't know where you're based, but I'd get in touch with Sebastian here;

    https://tuchwerkstatt.de/home/index.html

    Thanks, I'll check them out.  Had seen their ad in the newsletter along with Boswell Design but hadn't yet contacted anyone.
     
  • 05 Jan 2022 22:51
    Reply # 12242043 on 12237755

    Hi John, Annie brought your message to my attention. I can help you. I'm based in New Zealand but have clients worldwide. I design rigs, do conversions and make sails. You can find out more about me in the latest JRA mag as Graham Cox has written an article on myself and my activities.

    My email address is in the members dictionary, if you would like to contact me.

  • 05 Jan 2022 19:29
    Reply # 12241374 on 12237755
    Anonymous wrote:

    I’ve been re-building a 34’ Benford Badger for a number of years after acquiring it, unfinished, as what can be probably best be described as a failed project by another builder.  I’m at the point where I need to get the rig figured out and looking for some advice on my options.

    The rig design that came with the boat was slightly altered from stock, apparently in collaboration with Jay Benford, and has the main mast slightly forward of the default positioning.  This makes room for a sliding companionway hatch and the main sail would also be larger and the fore smaller than the original sailplan.

    The plan I have is light on details and was based around flat panel construction, which I have concerns about.  Given the lack of specifics on the sail and mast design, and my concern about the history of the changes, I would like to do a complete redesign and engineering of the rig (and masts) from scratch.

    As there are a few people who have the same design, at least some of the numbers will be floating around. However, there is some information missing.

    A) As you have not obtained the masts, or even engineered them yet, Are you planning to keep them in the same position or would it be just as easy to move them back to original? (there will be more people who know the original)

    B) assuming you need to keep the masts in the altered position, perhaps if you shared what details you do have: Sail area, Aspect ratio, mast height, placement, keel shape and placement, any other information you have.

    C) the Badgers junk rig has generally been based on standard HM rigs. Is this the case? Can you post a picture of the new design?

    The AK cambered sail plans, which have most of the math done already, have the same shape and balance (mast placement) as the HM sails. So given the AR and sail area, it should be possible to just "pick" one of his "pre-engineered" drawings by AR and scale for area. In other words, given a flat sail plan, the panels can be the same shape (outside dimensions don't change) with camber added via broad seam or barrel shaping the top and bottom. A sail maker will prefer broad seam or shelf foot as they make their product look better.

    Masts are more of a problem. I would assume you have mast height and probably some more info for wood masts as the badgers are designed for wood masts. As you may have read in other posts, people who make tapered aluminum poles (generally flag poles) are generally not willing to have them used as masts. This means self engineering their flag poles to choose ones that will work for you and buying flag poles. If taper is not required, a straight mast, multipart or hybrid can be designed. If you can find similar alloys and sizes to what Arne has used, his calculations are easier to follow. There should be a metals supermarket or some such near you, find out what aluminum tube they can supply in which lengths and go from there.

    I don't know if there is someone willing to give a "turn key" option though. I think there are some who would be willing to give strong hints in "here's what I would do" manner. But finding someone willing to give an engineer's stamp may be harder. There are a number of people who will make the sails for you as well, if you give them a design.

    In the end, I think you will find you have to do some of the "engineering" or at least have a good understanding of other people's ideas. I don't think anyone would want to be responsible for your life at sea, in other words.

    Sorry, probably not much help.

    Len

    Last modified: 05 Jan 2022 19:35 | Anonymous member
  • 05 Jan 2022 08:38
    Reply # 12239480 on 12239478
    Anonymous wrote:

    Hi John

    I don't know where you're based, but I'd get in touch with Sebastian here;

    https://tuchwerkstatt.de/home/index.html

    He's in Greifswald, Germany and has experience with this sort of thing (He's making the cambered sails for my Benford dory)

    Oh well, I've just looked and seen that you're in Oregon...
  • 05 Jan 2022 08:37
    Reply # 12239478 on 12237755

    Hi John

    I don't know where you're based, but I'd get in touch with Sebastian here;

    https://tuchwerkstatt.de/home/index.html

    He's in Greifswald, Germany and has experience with this sort of thing (He's making the cambered sails for my Benford dory)

  • 04 Jan 2022 19:25
    Message # 12237755

    Hello.

    I’ve been re-building a 34’ Benford Badger for a number of years after acquiring it, unfinished, as what can be probably best be described as a failed project by another builder.  I’m at the point where I need to get the rig figured out and looking for some advice on my options.

    The rig design that came with the boat was slightly altered from stock, apparently in collaboration with Jay Benford, and has the main mast slightly forward of the default positioning.  This makes room for a sliding companionway hatch and the main sail would also be larger and the fore smaller than the original sailplan.

    The plan I have is light on details and was based around flat panel construction, which I have concerns about.  Given the lack of specifics on the sail and mast design, and my concern about the history of the changes, I would like to do a complete redesign and engineering of the rig (and masts) from scratch.

    Though I’d always planned on doing the design and construction of the sails myself, I’m more pragmatic now and recognize the limitations given my time available.  As such, I had in mind to hire out the design work, and potentially the sail construction.  I’m not sure if it’s viable to launch in 2022, but expected that the aluminum masts (my first choice) could have a substantial lead time which was another reason I wanted to get this figured out now.

    I’ve been interested in JRs since Practical Junk Rig came out in the 80s and the more recent developments with cambered panels and even split junk rigs.  I haven’t kept up with the JRA forums and know there is a trove of valuable information here, but could use some help finding an initial direction to point my research efforts.

    Does anyone have specific recommendations here for either commercial entities I can hire for this project, or specific research I should be doing?

    Many thanks in advance!

    John


       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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