Good sailcloth for JR

  • 10 Dec 2017 10:44
    Reply # 5622211 on 1206989

    I think the best course for amateur sailmakers is to find those outlets in your own country that sell bankrupt stock, 'ends of lines' and cloth that is graded as 'second quality' because of cosmetic defects, not because of structural defects. In the UK, one such is englishseadog on eBay.co.uk who acquired the leftovers when the makers of Haywards sailcloth ceased production. Is there anyone similar in Germany or neighbouring countries, Frank? 

  • 10 Dec 2017 10:11
    Reply # 5622193 on 1206989
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I just stumbled over this report about water footprint of cotton production/consumption. I admit that I greyed out quite quickly when trying to read it:

    The numbers looks scary from my armchair, but the question is, would that water have been used (everywhere) if cotton had not been produced there. I guess one could make similar calculations for other sort of plant fibres fibres, like hemp, flax etc.

    When making cotton sail cloth with no colour added, at least one avoids the water use and possible pollution of this production stage.

    I guess, the best thing we can do as consumers of stuff, is to avoid too much use-and-throw practice. Better keep and maintain things for as long as we can ( sails, boats, clothes, cars, or whatever...)

    Arne



    Last modified: 10 Dec 2017 10:15 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 09 Dec 2017 22:43
    Reply # 5621922 on 1206989

    Badger's sails were made of proofed cotton, but I think most of the proofing had long since evaporated - the water only 'beaded' on them for a month or so - and they were never covered.  They didn't sit around wet long enough to get mildewed, because we sailed the boat a lot.  Making them was perfectly straightforward and they didn't appear to shrink.  The fact that they were secured along the boom, yard and battens may have had something to do with that, or maybe it was because it was pretty heavy cotton, or maybe it was because they were initially waterproof and stabilised before the residual proofing disappeared.  They lasted for a Scottish summer, followed by a voyage to the Canaries, Windies, USA and back to the British Virgin Is, by which time they were pretty rotten.  So they were about 2 years old.

    What do you mean by green?  It can take more than 20,000 litres of water to produce 1kg of cotton; equivalent to a single T-shirt and pair of jeans, with most of it grown on irrigated land.  It accounts for 24% of the sale of insecticide and 11% of the sales of pesticides, world wide, while accounting for only 2.4% of the world's cropland.  GM cotton uses less of all three.

    If you found cheap cotton that had been sitting on a shelf somewhere for many years, like we did, you would probably use up something that otherwise would end up being binned.  Buying new, commercially grown cotton cloth, as distinct from a polyester, acrylic, etc, fabric, is a complicated ethical cost-benefit analysis that defeats me!  That being so, I decided it was better to go for something man made that should last about a decade, with luck.

  • 09 Dec 2017 20:06
    Reply # 5621847 on 1206989

    I'm old enough to remember when there was no synthetic cloth, and all sails were made from cotton or flax. It was used for hundreds of years, but sailmakers breathed a sigh of relief when polyester cloth first appeared, because it was dimensionally stable. Looking at the book that I learned my sailmaking from, Make Your Own Sails by Bowker and Budd, 1957, I'm reminded that a new sail can be expected to stretch by 2.5%. Conversely, 8 oz 100% cotton canvas has been making a comeback for medium weight car-camping tents, and I see that 3% shrinkage must be allowed for in this example. Other than that, so long as the cloth has been tightly woven and then proofed against rot and mildew, it will have an acceptable life. But if it is of high quality, I would have to query whether it would cost less than polyester cloth. 

  • 09 Dec 2017 18:58
    Reply # 5621788 on 1206989

    I didn't find any hands-on experience on cotton sailcloth and I would like to rule out natural fibers as a cheap/green alternative. All I found is a picture from Badgers first cotton sail.

    What do you think how long can cotton withstand the sun for example in the med compared to Odyssey III with the same good care (sailcover, no wet storing)? I found a panama weaved 300 g/qm (8.85oz/yd²) cotton which costs roughly the half compared to Odyssey (220g/qm / 6.5oz/yd²). We plan to sew a ~40qm sail and because its our first one I think it would be okay if it last maybe 5 years and we then would have a good reason to build a new and better one :)


    Last modified: 09 Dec 2017 19:03 | Anonymous member
  • 12 Mar 2017 21:07
    Reply # 4662290 on 4662255
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    David Tyler wrote:
    David Tyler

    [edit] Wikipedia begs to differ, and makes mention of King Henry I and the measure of his arm. Whatever, our American cousins are still using a very archaic measure.

    .. er, which the British , sorry, Imperial standards are not, of course  -  stones, gallons, cwt, SWG, etc. etc...

    A.


    Last modified: 12 Mar 2017 23:33 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 12 Mar 2017 20:26
    Reply # 4662255 on 4398340
    David Tyler wrote:

    ... looking at Wikipedia, I see that it should be 28.5 inches x 36 inches as the unit of USA sailcloth measure...

    Hah!!!

    I've just been referring to my copy of "Sails", by Jeremy Howard-Williams, one of the standard texts on sailmaking. 

    And I've just noticed that he mentions the standard from which the width of USA sailcloth is derived.

    ... wait for it ...

    It was King Henry VIII who first established a standard for the width of broadcloth - by measuring the distance between his nose and his outstretched hand. No, he didn't have very long arms, so that distance was 28.5 inches. I had better make no further comment.

    [edit] Wikipedia begs to differ, and makes mention of King Henry I and the measure of his arm. Whatever, our American cousins are still using a very archaic measure.

    Last modified: 12 Mar 2017 20:46 | Anonymous member
  • 01 Mar 2017 21:01
    Reply # 4641926 on 4641061
    David Tyler wrote:There may still be some natural colour Clipper Canvas and other material worth considering. Phone Nicola on 01305 457500 or 07799 221119 to check on what's available.


    From personal experience, natural-coloured Clipper Canvas has nowhere near the UV resistance of the tan version.  Unless you intend religiously to cover the sail, it's probably not worth considering.
  • 01 Mar 2017 13:03
    Reply # 4641061 on 1206989
    David Tyler wrote:

    That does sound expensive for Weathermax, but they are the only source. Clipper Canvas from Kayospruce is also too expensive, but I bought my material from an eBay store Englishseadog. I've drawn a blank on the red lightweight material that I intended to make David Hall's sail from, so I'll be phoning them on Monday to see what they have. Their eBay listings often don't accurately reflect their actual stock.

    I've ordered enough cream coloured 4 oz sailcloth for the sail for David Hall's Nimrod, and also the remains of their stock of tan coloured 4 oz sailcloth, for when I next get a rush of blood to the head and decide to make another sail. This is Hayward's Sunwing, absolutely the last ends-of-rolls. It was the best of the conventional cruising sailcloths, but it's all gone at this weight. There may still be some natural colour Clipper Canvas and other material worth considering. Phone Nicola on 01305 457500 or 07799 221119 to check on what's available.


  • 20 Feb 2017 09:13
    Reply # 4618710 on 1206989

    I placed an order for the 92g polyester, but I won't hold you responsible, David :)

    The price is so much less than Outguard, and this is my first JR sail, after all. I'll use tough seatbelt webbing, let's hope this works ok.


    EDIT: I will also consider the possibility of using Roger Taylor hinge-system between the top three panels and the rest of the sail. This will make it possible to make the upper part of the sail from a thicker cloth later on, if needed.

    Last modified: 20 Feb 2017 11:04 | Anonymous member
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