Hydrogeneration

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  • 25 Sep 2021 21:28
    Reply # 11119274 on 11114206
    Deleted user
    Graeme wrote:


    Wind generators seem to have gone out of fashion these days, for a couple of good reasons, I suppose. But as we move beyond the need to merely feed a house battery, and into the era of sustainable electric power auxiliary propulsion (and I think we are now moving in this direction) perhaps wind power generation should be re-visited as part of a suite of complementary partial solutions. Vertical axis wind generators have not been found to be as efficient (yet) as the horizontal axis wind generators which used to be ubiquitous on long distance cruising boats – but that does not mean they are ineffective. I wonder if a slower turning, hi-torque vertical axis wind generator might better suit the geometry of a cruising boat deck layout, be safer and quieter, and perhaps be worth looking at as another possible source of battery power, along with hydrogeneration, to supplement and complement the primary source: solar panels. I wondered if the large diameter Fisher and Paykel washing machine motor might make a suitable partner for a vertical axis wind turbine. I wish I knew more. I am starting to find the forum comments of our electrically savvy JRA members of great interest now, and re-reading threads which I had previously not studied. Starting with Davd Ty’s Electric outboard drive for small cruisers thread which, by the way,  I wish I had gone back and read more carefully before starting another one.


    I think that wind generators definitely have their place and have had some experience of these. That Ham Ferris water tow generator also converted to a two blade wind generator which was hoisted up in the triangle ahead of the mast. It had a large diameter propeller and could put out some amps when the wind blew. However it was difficult to use because it could only be used at anchor, and it tended to make you want to anchor where there was wind available.

    On Footprints I also had a wind generator as part of my 'charging suite', because having an outboard motor I did not have high charge output with the engine running. I purchased a Chinese copy of a Rutland 913 small diameter generator which I landed in NZ for less than $400. It was a bit noisy but it worked great and during hours of darkness or little sun it complemented the solar panels. Even at night on our ocean crossings as long as there was wind our batteries were always up over 13 volts. By the time we had done our cruise to New Caledonia I really felt that I had had my money's worth out of this unit. Interestingly a couple of years later that unit was destroyed in a mooring incident, along with much of the stern of the vessel. The wind generator was replaced as part of the insurance repairs with a genuine Rutland 914 unit costing over $2000. I always felt that the genuine Rutland unit never performed as well as the Chinese copy I previously had, although it was certainly very quiet. With my current boat, and not having an electric outboard, there is no need for a wind generator as two solar panels are more than adequate for our electrical needs which is basically a few LED lights, a couple of USB charging points, and a small very efficient electric fridge. A mobile phone, iPod and small Bluetooth speaker provide entertainment needs, and VHF Radio and GPS are both handheld charged via the USB chargers.

    If I ever wanted another wind generator I would certainly go shopping for another Chinese made unit as they seem good value. For a yacht equipped with electric propulsion a wind generator would be worthwhile to aid in battery charging and to produce the power required for the electric motor.

    Last modified: 25 Sep 2021 21:57 | Deleted user
  • 24 Sep 2021 14:09
    Reply # 11115500 on 11108479
    Deleted user

    Anyone familiar with this (very expensive) system? The Sail-Gen.

    duogen.co.uk

  • 24 Sep 2021 00:29
    Reply # 11114206 on 11108479
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    On this fairly lengthy thread there is quite a lot of information on towed hydrogenerators, including some attempts at evaluating the performance of the Hamilton Ferris unit referred to by David Th. The standard spinner for the Ferris WP20 tow generator is (was) based on a Johnson/Evinrude propeller, Part number: 386587. Size 8-1/4x5.

    Here is one example:

    “I'm also measuring about 50% slip when extracting 60 watts at 5 knots with the same prop on a Hamilton Ferris generator.

    <3.0 kts: zero output
    3.5 kts: 0.2 amp
    4.0 kts: 1.0
    4.5 kts: 2.0
    4.7 kts: 2.2
    5.0 kts 2.5
    5.2 kts: 2.8
    5.3 kts: 4.0
    5.5 kts: 4.5
    5.6 kts: 4.8
    The results above were obtained while 
    charging a 400 amp/hour lead/acid battery bank with a terminal voltage of 12.5 volts”

    Here is another evaluation of the Hamilton Ferris unit.

    These figures would seem to match the requirements of a house battery bank while on an offshore passage or perhaps a lengthy coastal cruise, and I dare say there are a number of JRA members who know about these things and have used them in the past. Probably not going to add hugely to the challenge of maintaining the battery bank for an electric auxiliary motor.

    However, part of the fun of that (going electric auxiliary) would be the challenge of grabbing free energy from wherever it is available by whatever means, whenever the opportunity presents itself, and storing it for when it is needed. Like collecting firewood in summer. In that case, hydrogeneration might still have a place, even though as a sailboat solution it is fatally flawed by the following simple paradox – a kind of catch 22 and a disincentive to improve its effectiveness: The better hydrogeneration is at producing electricity, the more it is going to degrade the performance of its own input source. 

    My feeling is that with today’s technology, the main source of energy for an electric auxiliary motor battery bank would probably have to be solar, but it would still be good fun to supplement this with other non-carbon sources whenever possible.

    There is quite a lot to be found on the internet relating to the use of discarded Fisher and Paykel washing machine smart motors, converted to generators. (For example). Evidently they are especially suitable. This has always pricked my curiosity, because Fisher and Paykel is a New Zealand designed and made brand of washing machine, so it is one of those rare cases of a  manufactured resource of which discarded examples suitable for repurposing ought to be readily available in New Zealand. I don’t have enough knowledge about electricity to evaluate if a converted washing machine smart motor would suit a towed spinner, but maybe that’s worth a look.

    I wish I could get my hands on a discarded trolling motor which I imagine could convert very nicely into a retractable hydrogenerator, but I am afraid in New Zealand, that's not very likely.

    Another thought, which to me is a more intuitive solution to hydrogeneration than a towed spinner, would be a reverse version of a Thai/Vietnamese longtail motor. Ought to be easy enough to assemble or dismantle and anyway no more difficut to stow than a yuloh. (Easier to change props too - perhaps it could also serve as an "electric yuloh"!)


    Wind generators seem to have gone out of fashion these days, for a couple of good reasons, I suppose. But as we move beyond the need to merely feed a house battery, and into the era of sustainable electric power auxiliary propulsion (and I think we are now moving in this direction) perhaps wind power generation should be re-visited as part of a suite of complementary partial solutions. Vertical axis wind generators have not been found to be as efficient (yet) as the horizontal axis wind generators which used to be ubiquitous on long distance cruising boats – but that does not mean they are ineffective. I wonder if a slower turning, hi-torque vertical axis wind generator might better suit the geometry of a cruising boat deck layout, be safer and quieter, and perhaps be worth looking at as another possible source of battery power, along with hydrogeneration, to supplement and complement the primary source: solar panels. I wondered if the large diameter Fisher and Paykel washing machine motor might make a suitable partner for a vertical axis wind turbine. I wish I knew more. I am starting to find the forum comments of our electrically savvy JRA members of great interest now, and re-reading threads which I had previously not studied. Starting with Davd Ty’s Electric outboard drive for small cruisers thread which, by the way,  I wish I had gone back and read more carefully before starting another one.


    Last modified: 24 Sep 2021 07:45 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Sep 2021 20:46
    Reply # 11113820 on 11112073
    Deleted user
    Maxime wrote:

    Any reason these can't be made cheaply from a recycled car alternator? Is too much torque required to drive them? Or from a small electric motor, then? A generator is just a motor being forcibly turned...

    My understanding with the generator unit on the Ham Ferris unit was that it was some kind of computer drive motor which when run backwards generated power, and maybe it was permanent magnet - did they have permanent magnet motors back then? I don't know that an alternator would do the job because these are mostly of open construction, and need an exciter current to get them charging. A permanent magnet unit would be the way to go because they run forever. I guess there is also the question of how many RPM is needed to get a generator producing. 
    Last modified: 23 Sep 2021 20:47 | Deleted user
  • 23 Sep 2021 13:09
    Reply # 11112820 on 11108479
    Deleted user

    Arne,


    If my memory serves me correctly, a couple of decades ago there was a British autopilot powered by a towed prop driven generator.  As I recall, the problem was the torque created twisted the cable so much that it did not function.  There were lawsuits and the company folded.

    Anyone recall the name of the company?


    Spent some time on Google and found the company.  Was called "Windhunter" and went out in blaze of litigation back in the 90's. The YBH forum has a number of details about it and the difficulty of stabilizing a towed generator. 

    Last modified: 24 Sep 2021 14:02 | Deleted user
  • 23 Sep 2021 10:10
    Reply # 11112551 on 11112073
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Maxime wrote:

    Any reason these can't be made cheaply from a recycled car alternator? Is too much torque required to drive them? Or from a small electric motor, then? A generator is just a motor being forcibly turned...

    I've been thinking along the same lines.

    The torque of the generator, and thus the output of it, can be reduced by fitting a variable resistor (Rheostat or transistor) in the magnetizing line. This could make it fit variable conditions and size of boat.

    My idea was to use some sort of towed propeller.

    Arne

    Last modified: 23 Sep 2021 10:11 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Sep 2021 04:51
    Reply # 11112073 on 11108479

    Any reason these can't be made cheaply from a recycled car alternator? Is too much torque required to drive them? Or from a small electric motor, then? A generator is just a motor being forcibly turned...

  • 23 Sep 2021 04:17
    Reply # 11112006 on 11108479
    Deleted user

    We were doing Hydrogeneration back in the late 1980's. On my Searunner trimaran I had a Ham Ferris water tow generator. It was a 12v DC generator unit mounted on a gimbal on the stern of the boat connected by a length of stiff braided line to a spinner which consisted of a stainless shaft and a small outboard type propeller. It was quite crude in a way but I see that Ham Ferris are still marketing these units. Mine used to put out so many amps that the inline blocking diode became too hot to touch, but certainly when making an ocean passage my batteries were always fully charged. It had one problem with the trimaran which was quite fast in that for speeds over 8 knots the spinner would just start leaping across the wave tops. So an outboard unit type water generator would be a much better option. I see that there are some of units available now but at a cost that makes my eyes water so it would be great to see some type of DIY hydrogeneration unit that attached to the transom like an outboard motor.

  • 22 Sep 2021 16:10
    Reply # 11110291 on 11108479
    Deleted user

    Clearly as usual we all look at this from different perspectives.  My view is from a voyaging perspective involving long passages that may take one through doldrums, equatorial or the North Atlantic high, etc.    I look at regeneration as an important and valuable feature.  I also do not like a lot of systems, hence my suggestion of swapping out the prop on an outboard.   This could be fairly quick and easy........not that quick is important in that context.  In shorter distances of a hundred miles or so it would be inconvenient.  Any time you have winds in excess of what is necessary to push a boat to hull speed, you have surplus energy to harvest, and the regen system makes your boat into a wind charger effectively. That energy can then be used later when the winds are lighter or non existent.   An easily driven boat like a multihull could utilize one of these small electric outboards very nicely.    With lithium Iron Phosphate batteries falling in price rapidly........ if you shop around electric makes increasing sense.  Modern sophisticated charge controllers could take the 48 volt output and not only charge the propulsion batteries, but also the house batteries, though ideally one would have two banks, and swap them from parallel to series for something like 36 volts during charging.  


         There are numerous Utubes on how to set up lithium battery packs cheaply.... They can be on par cost wise or even better than flooded lead acid or AGMs it seems.

          In addition it means that going ALL electric and eliminating propane or alcohol in the galley is well within reach.  There are some extremely efficient electric cooking systems out there, and they are getting quite inexpensive.   I personally love my induction "hot plate", which is powerful enough that it has pretty much replaced gas for most of my stove top cooking.  Instant pot type pressure cookers, and so called "thermal" cookers where you bring a pot to temp and drop it in an insulated housing where cooking continues without additional heat..... It all makes the all electric galley viable, with perhaps an Oriego for back up / emergency use.   Cheap solar panels, and the ability to utilize wind for electricity efficiently without having blades spinning in the wind, equates to lots of cheap electricity.  

    Thermal Cookers

    Note that there are quite a few Utubes also on these, and numerous manufacturers.

          If your battery bank gets low......... just up anchor and go sailing.  It is a SAIL boat after all   ;-)


                                                        H.W.

  • 22 Sep 2021 13:39
    Reply # 11109890 on 11108479
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Of course Arne. You can’t get energy for nothing, you know that. What is generated must be paid for and in this mode, the cost is going to be drag. I would assume if you can afford one of these things, you can afford a catamaran or monohull large enough and powerful enough to utilise it, on all points of sail.

    It wouldn’t do at all for your little boat Arne (even less so for mine). But here is a link which was emailed to me months ago (by Marcus, if I recall).

    It features this boat, which I believe is a brand new “Salona S46”


    The video is one of the “Sailing Uma” series, which used to be quite good back in the days when this couple were pioneering their first electric engine sailboat – but I am afraid this one is really just a promotional video, which has little to recommend it, other than, for few seconds, you get a glimpse of this S46, close hauled, doing about 8 knots- while generating simultaneously from two of these units. Yes, it has two oceanVolt 10kw sail drives. And it has a 30kw battery bank.

    The point of all this is, you CAN regenerate. But that sort of set-up is really beyond my resources..


    Last modified: 23 Sep 2021 12:41 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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