Rudders and manual steering control

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  • 23 Apr 2013 10:55
    Reply # 1275555 on 1275382
    Kurt Jon Ulmer wrote:A rudder you intend to replace gives you a perfect chance to experiment - with length, balance, endplate... and your final one will be better if you do.

    KJU

    Very true Kurt, very true.
  • 23 Apr 2013 04:20
    Reply # 1275382 on 1012370
    A rudder you intend to replace gives you a perfect chance to experiment - with length, balance, endplate... and your final one will be better if you do.

    KJU
  • 20 Apr 2013 23:15
    Reply # 1273635 on 1012370
    I'm actually thinking I may  build an entirely new rudder with the leading edge vertical and add 300-400mm to the length. I'll build it lighter as well.
    I think I'll go with the end plate to start with.
  • 19 Apr 2013 03:15
    Reply # 1272562 on 1012370
    Deleted user
    Some one's shown a pic of Gary's rudder and the aft raking behind the pivot has been noticed and commented by the usual busy bodies on woodboatie forum [terrible aren't they? ;o)  ].
    But I reckon they have a point.
    (but only if there is problem in the first place)
    Last modified: 19 Apr 2013 03:18 | Deleted user
  • 18 Apr 2013 22:47
    Reply # 1272353 on 1012370
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Annie has a point, of course. Still an improved rudder may also help one to tack so if the boat is reluctant to tack with the present rudder, the endplate will help, while reefing will not. We did this mod to a friend's boat and it certainly made tacking easier.

    Cheers, Arne

  • 18 Apr 2013 22:04
    Reply # 1272332 on 1272256
    Paul Thompson wrote:
    Gary Pick wrote:During our last trial sail with the boat broad reaching I noticed a fair bit of weather helm. We had 6 panels up with gusts a bit over 15 knots.
    Ah.  This is a subtle hint that it's time to reef.  This is a lot easier than rebuilding your rudder.
  • 18 Apr 2013 20:44
    Reply # 1272256 on 1270822
    Gary Pick wrote:During our last trial sail with the boat broad reaching I noticed a fair bit of weather helm. We had 6 panels up with gusts a bit over 15 knots. I reduced the weather helm some what by reefing another panel. I haven't had a chance to really explore this but a couple of people, one of them Arne commented on the shallowness of Redwing's rudder. I plan to haul out for some maintenance jobs in May and I'm thinking of fitting an end plate. My idea was to have it fabricated in stainless with the end plate at the bottom of the rudder and two cheek plates up each side I can through bolt. However having read though this thread I'm now thinking it would be cheaper, lighter and easier to glue a ply end plate to the bottom of the rudder. I could still incorporate ply cheeks to give it greater strength. The below waterline length of the rudder is a fraction over 60cms and the chord is 21 cms with a thickness of 4cm.
    Any ideas on the span I should make it? 
    Gary, If you have weather helm, try increasing the sail balance (i.e. just let the sail go forward a bit) of your sail. Not a lot, about 5% or so. then go for a sail and readjust as (if) needed.

    Adding an endplate may increase rudder efficiency but it will not alter your balance. Accepted wisdom for endplates is that the size of the endplate should be equal to the additional area that you would add to the rudder.
    Last modified: 18 Apr 2013 22:52 | Anonymous member
  • 18 Apr 2013 20:11
    Reply # 1272222 on 1012370
    Hi Gary,

    Very sensible to experiment in plywood. If you start with the largest endplate you've imagined, you can trim it next time she's out, seal it up and leave it in place. If it turns out too big, that is. I don't know how you'll tell... 

    If the rudder is 4cm thick and I were going to do it, I'd make the endplate, oh, about 26cm wide overall, leading end flush with the rudder's start, trailing end rounded off somewhat aft of the blade's finish, all in a fair shape to shed weed and fishing lines. That should be big enough to test the concept. All guesses!

    I'm not hopeful that an endplate will help your weather helm much, but a significantly larger rudder will. To my eye and Arne's, Redwing's is small. 

    Be brave. Experiment with an added lower section, which can be sacrificial like ours (in technical illustrations.) So... another guess! - try adding one-third more to the area in the water. Just carve up a chunk of timber for the first edition. For attachment, Sikaflex is pretty good stuff. Add some balance to the lower part to keep tiller forces light. You'll have to satisfy yourself that the structure above can handle it.

    (I can't remember whether your keel lifts or not. If so, I'm sure you've seen many trailer-sailers with arrangements that allow for lifting the rudder foil too. There's a project!)

    A few degrees of weather helm (tiller angle off centreline) is good. Most junks don't need to reef in 15 knots. Were you heeled way over? There are other ways to attack weather helm, as you can read in Hasler & McLeod and elsewhere...

    (At this point, somebody will expect me to suggest you take the camber out of your sail, so I'll suggest it. But don't.)

    After our experience of putting up with a poor and breaking original rudder, then making do with a prototype that we couldn't step away from, and finally getting it roughly right, I'd say your efforts in this area will pay off.

    Cheers,
    Kurt
    Last modified: 18 Apr 2013 20:43 | Anonymous member
  • 17 Apr 2013 13:36
    Reply # 1270822 on 1012370
    During our last trial sail with the boat broad reaching I noticed a fair bit of weather helm. We had 6 panels up with gusts a bit over 15 knots. I reduced the weather helm some what by reefing another panel. I haven't had a chance to really explore this but a couple of people, one of them Arne commented on the shallowness of Redwing's rudder. I plan to haul out for some maintenance jobs in May and I'm thinking of fitting an end plate. My idea was to have it fabricated in stainless with the end plate at the bottom of the rudder and two cheek plates up each side I can through bolt. However having read though this thread I'm now thinking it would be cheaper, lighter and easier to glue a ply end plate to the bottom of the rudder. I could still incorporate ply cheeks to give it greater strength. The below waterline length of the rudder is a fraction over 60cms and the chord is 21 cms with a thickness of 4cm.
    Any ideas on the span I should make it? 
  • 03 Apr 2013 02:46
    Reply # 1257818 on 1256372
    Deleted user
    Kurt Jon Ulmer wrote:Hi Gary,

    The tendency of a rudder with a down-forward raked axis, is to depress the stern in a hard turn. A horizontal end-plate with much area in it, will counter that to some extent, and of course add drag. 

    (Our case is the opposite, 18 degrees or so, raked down-aft. The bow gets pushed down a little. Our endplate is small.)

    Cheers,
    Kurt

    Since most steering adjustments are relatively small and weather helm situations have heaps of drag anyway, it wouldnt hurt to have a small endplate, maybe 2cm protrusion either side. Its purpose is to move the vortexes off the main blade right? So must improve things even on my deeply cantered rudder.
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