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Junk Vocabulary [moving to Wiki format, see posts]

  • 07 Dec 2013 22:50
    Quote
    Reply # 1453741 on 1448755
    Deleted user
    Brian Kerslake wrote:Hi Dave. I replied to your email (copy to Lesley) before I saw your latest post. I think it covers all of the points you made above, including admin assistance, which either of us can give. Get back to me here when you've reached a (possibly joint) decision.
    Hi Brian,

    Lesley, Bruce and I are working on a Wiki format for the Vocabulary. Still mulling over directions to take it, but will know more as we get more familiar with the medium. Looks very promising, however!

    So for now, Lesley is providing all the admin services we require for the project.

    Will keep you posted!

    Dave Z
  • 07 Dec 2013 23:24
    Quote
    Reply # 1453752 on 1406534
    Deleted user

    Rig, Sailplan, Planform

    Use of these three terms is inconsistent, both within JRA and the World beyond. We (Vocabulary editors) are looking for input from the community.

    Of the three, 'planform' seems least common, and synonymous with 'sailplan', so I'd suggest we declare it non-standard. The other two seem nearly synonymous in use, but with a shade of distinction...

    'Sailplan' favors actual sail geometries (e.g., Fantail Sailplan), with little to no emphasis on associated rigging. I hear this use more often within the JRA.

    'Rig' seems to favor 'sailplan' + rigging (e.g., Jester Rig). I hear this more often in the World, but frequently within the JRA.

    Whichever we choose, I'm thinking to polish them, update their current definitions and bring all others into compliance.

    *****

    My personal preference is for 'Rig' for a particular type with its associated rigging, and use 'sailplan' to refer specifically to the geometric layout of a sail. This resonates with 'Junk Rig', 'Ljungstrom Rig', 'Thames River Barge Rig', and others that refer to classes, broad and narrow. We'd use it in something like this manner:

    Fantail Rig: The Fantail Rig was developed by David T, and first used on Annie H's Fantail. It features a generally fanned sailplan with strongly fanned upper panels. A throat hauling parrel is generally used to peak up the yard for improved sail set.

    Note that this is only a sample... we're interested in the usage of 'rig' vs 'sailplan' vs 'planform', not the actual definition, as yet.

    Any thoughts?

    Dave Z
  • 07 Dec 2013 23:39
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    Reply # 1453755 on 1406534
    Deleted user
    My understanding is:

    Planform = Shape of the sail.
    Sail Plan = A plan of the sail including geometry, dimensions, basically all the info needed to build it.
    Rig = the sail(s) and all associated standing and running rigging.
  • 13 Dec 2013 00:35
    Quote
    Reply # 1457219 on 1453755
    Deleted user
    Chris Gallienne wrote:My understanding is:

    Planform = Shape of the sail.
    Sail Plan = A plan of the sail including geometry, dimensions, basically all the info needed to build it.
    Rig = the sail(s) and all associated standing and running rigging.
    Hi Chris,

    That sounds good, though I note the distinction between 'Sail Plan' (in design circles, this certainly refers to page(s)  within a plan for a specific sail, as you describe), and 'Sailplan', which is used much like 'Planform', as a general term for the abstracted type or class to which a specific sail belongs.

    I should perhaps rephrase the question:

    Which seems more correct when referring to or discussing the type?

    Jester Rig, Reddish Rig;
    Jester Sailplan, Reddish Sailplan;
    Jester Planform, Reddish Planform?

    My own sense is the first, for general discussion. The second, when focusing in on the sail alone. I'd vote to retire (declare 'non-standard') the third as redundant. 

    At present, the three seem to be used almost synonomously, and willy-nilly. As part of the role of the JR Glossary is to establish a standard vocabulary, this seems one of the areas to straighten out with the goal of consistent use of meaningful distinctions. 

    Anyone else care to weigh in, as well?

    Dave Z

  • 13 Dec 2013 05:08
    Quote
    Reply # 1457298 on 1406534
    Anonymous member
    Planform = a description or drawing of the geometry of a sail.
    Sailplan = a scale drawing of a rig  and the vessel to which it is fitted (or intended to be fitted) which will include depictions of sail(s) of a suitable  planform, spars, rigging, etc.
    Rig = the whole package of sail(s), spars, rigging etc as fitted to a vessel.

    None of the terms are redundant; they describe entirely different things.
    Last modified: 13 Dec 2013 05:13 | Anonymous member
  • 13 Dec 2013 05:57
    Quote
    Reply # 1457310 on 1406534
    Deleted user
    Oxford Dictionary:  Planform. noun
    the shape or outline of an aircraft wing as projected upon a horizontal plane.

    Merriam Webster: "First used 1908. The contour of an object (as an airplane) or mass as viewed from above."

    Wikipedia here "an aviation term.  the shape and layout of a fixed-wing aircraft's fuselage and wing. 

    And the rest say much the same; that it is the shape of something (usually an aircraft wing) viewed from above.

    So my thought is that this term has been borrowed, on the grounds of a sail working in the same way as a wing, but in the vertical plane?

    If you hold to the accepted definition then it is being used in error, if you accept its function, to show the shape of something, then it works as a descriptor for drawings of different types of sails in general.  Pretty much what is at the front of PJR and in the list of new rig types in the back of PJR, which are surely illustrations of different designs of junk rigs.

    I'd say if it's being used, it needs including in the glossary, if only to highlight its possible incorrect application/useage.  Annie??

    A sail-plan/sail plan/sailplan is a "set of drawings, usually prepared by a naval architect. It shows the various combinations of sail proposed for a sailing ship." (wikipedia)

    Just my 4 pennyworth of gleanings!

    Lesley



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    Last modified: 13 Dec 2013 06:02 | Deleted user
  • 13 Dec 2013 20:39
    Quote
    Reply # 1457761 on 1406534
    Anonymous member
    I have to say that 'planform' was a new one to me and as a 'plan' view of anything, is usually from above, I confess to being a bit bemused by the use of the word.  However, I assumed it was something used in USA and not elsewhere or (more likely) that my lack of technical nous was showing.

    To me, a sail plan is the profile drawing showing all the different sails that the designer anticipates being used.  In the case of JR, that would normally be one per mast.  It would either have a scale, or show the measurements of luff, etc, plus the area of each sail and often the centre of effort of the rig.  That would seem, to me, to include the 'geometry of the sail'.
  • 13 Dec 2013 21:19
    Quote
    Reply # 1457794 on 1406534
    Anonymous member
    It's true that we sailors have borrowed the word 'planform' from aircraft designers and architects. The planform of a Spitfire wing is semi-elliptical, a building might have an octagonal planform, for example. We use it to describe the general shape of a sail: the Fenix planform is fanned and high AR, the Fantail planform is fanned and low AR.

    Then we move on from there, and incorporate the planform into a sailplan, which by this time has acquired scale and dimensions.
  • 14 Dec 2013 07:45
    Quote
    Reply # 1457967 on 1457298
    Deleted user
    David Tyler wrote:Planform = a description or drawing of the geometry of a sail.
    Sailplan = a scale drawing of a rig  and the vessel to which it is fitted (or intended to be fitted) which will include depictions of sail(s) of a suitable  planform, spars, rigging, etc.
    Rig = the whole package of sail(s), spars, rigging etc as fitted to a vessel.

    None of the terms are redundant; they describe entirely different things.

    I'd not encountered the term 'planform' outside of the JRA (not general American usage), but this sounds reasonable to me, with clear distinctions.
    If I understand correctly, then one might say:

    The Fantail Planform has low aspect ratio.
    The sailplan specifies the sail and details its rigging.
    Fantail's sailplan specifies cambered panels (Fantail, the vessel, in this case).
    The vessel has a Fantail Rig, or is Fantail Rigged.

    To refer to the Fantail Sailplan would be non-standard.

    Regarding Junk Rigs, the last form would apply to all the species, such as Fantail Rig, Reddish Rig, Colvin Rig, etc..

    Did I get this right, and does this satisfy everyone?

    Dave Z


    PS. A good sample of the confusion we're addressing can be seen in Sailpans - Current, in which the terms 'sailplans', 'rig', 'sail' and 'planform' are all in use, more or less synonymously.

    PPS. American usage, in the circles I run, would be 'sail', 'sail plan' and 'rig', respectively.


    Last modified: 15 Dec 2013 03:30 | Deleted user
  • 15 Dec 2013 16:11
    Quote
    Reply # 1458509 on 1453741
    Deleted user
    Dave Zeiger wrote:
    Brian Kerslake wrote:Hi Dave. I replied to your email (copy to Lesley) before I saw your latest post. I think it covers all of the points you made above, including admin assistance, which either of us can give. Get back to me here when you've reached a (possibly joint) decision.
    Hi Brian,

    Lesley, Bruce and I are working on a Wiki format for the Vocabulary. Still mulling over directions to take it, but will know more as we get more familiar with the medium. Looks very promising, however!

    So for now, Lesley is providing all the admin services we require for the project.

    Will keep you posted!

    Dave Z
    OK, thanks Dave. Noted. I'll keep out of it until you shout.
       " ...there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in junk-rigged boats" 
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