A place for the ruffling of the feathers

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  • 29 May 2020 23:33
    Reply # 9001961 on 8985384

    The Bermuda Rig is superior to the Junk Rig in every aspect. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.




    Did I ruffle some feathers?

    Last modified: 29 May 2020 23:37 | Anonymous member
  • 29 May 2020 10:50
    Reply # 9000381 on 8997278
    Arne wrote:The adjustable cam block was adjusted so I had to bend fully down to release the sheet. “ I must fix that, some day”, I thought. Then on the second trip, a strong windgust came, and I had not fixed it, yet  -  so over we went. At least I learned a bit from it...

    Thank you Arne - you have described the problem accurately!  And I too have learned.  I have learned that I must fix it, some day...

    When I hoisted my first cambered panel sail in ‘94 (NL30), I soon found that I had given the top panel too much camber. I went for a quick fix with the sail still on the boat: I just added a row of stitches along the head of the sail which effectively took away 50mm cloth at the middle of the yard, and then less and less towards the ends.

    Thanks, yes, that would work.  I'd also thought of putting a curved row of eyelets to lace up to the adjacent batten.  Then got to thinking whether such a solution could be used more generally to adjust camber.  And thus distracted, still haven't got to fixing it!  You are right - a bit less contemplation and a bit more "JFDI" would be useful!

  • 28 May 2020 09:24
    Reply # 8997278 on 8985384
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    James

    Good to see that your sail works fine now.
    A badly angled cam block led to my first and only total capsize, back in 1976. I had just bought an Oslojolle (..not ‘Broremann’ which i got in 2008..). The adjustable cam block was adjusted so I had to bend fully down to release the sheet. “ I must fix that, some day”, I thought. Then on the second trip, a strong windgust came, and I had not fixed it, yet  -  so over we went. At least I learned a bit from it...

    When I hoisted my first cambered panel sail in ‘94 (NL30), I soon found that I had given the top panel too much camber. I went for a quick fix with the sail still on the boat: I just added a row of stitches along the head of the sail which effectively took away 50mm cloth at the middle of the yard, and then less and less towards the ends. This was of course only meant to be a temporary fix, but when the sail was dumped in 2011, those stitches were still there, and yes; they flattened the top panel well enough.
    I just mention it...

    Arne


    Last modified: 28 May 2020 09:26 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 May 2020 08:50
    Reply # 8997221 on 8985384

    So to finally chase the bee out of my bonnet, I went back to JRA magazine 80 where the conversion of River Rat is described. And it appears that the sail is a scaled down copy of Poppy's sail, which has 29% balance, IIRC, which is an amount of balance that is conservative, compared with later SJR sails. James says that the sheet runs out freely and the sail will then feather and depower. Even with some doubt over whether a suitable amount of camber was built in. So my mind is put at rest. 30% balance for a go-anywhere offshore SJR is a justifiable position to hold, leaving some headroom for errors to creep into the sailmaking and rigging.

  • 27 May 2020 19:47
    Reply # 8996023 on 8985384

    No contrition required, David - after all, your interpretation credits me with more seamanship than I actually displayed on the day!  I've been pondering my asssertion that I'd have ended up the same with any rig.  My refined analysis is that if I'd had a seriously non-performant sail, then I would have been less excited and eager, so would be less likely to have been carried way to the point of carrying too much canvas.  Of course I'd also be more likely to have given up sailing and motored back to port.

    I don't recall ever being worried about the sail not feathering.  I let go the sheet, and out the sail goes.  And there's a reasonably strong pull on the mainsheet.  Bear in mind that the sheetlets don't run through blocks, but through stainless thimbles, but they are very thin, so not much friction.

    I do have too much power in the main when the wind is strong - I'm pretty sure I made the mainlets with a lot too much camber (calculation error on my part).  I really need to flatten the upper panels at least.  No danger of not feathering, but tends to pull the boat over when close-hauled rather than letting me sail close to the wind.  But it's magic in light headwinds.

  • 27 May 2020 07:13
    Reply # 8994778 on 8993170
    James wrote:

    David wrote (in the Alberg30 thread):

    I was there when River Rat got blown down during the Brixham regatta (Magazine 81, p15). I didn't see it happen with my own eyes, but was sailing in the same conditions, with fresh gusts coming off the land, and I will stick my neck out and say that I don't believe it would have happened if the sail had not been a SJR and the sheet had run out more freely.

    Hi, David, I agree with you that your neck may be a little extended there!  The problem in Brixham was the chap at the tiller.  I had far too much canvas up for the conditions.  I was too greedy, and forgot that old adage that Less is More when it comes to canvas on a Junk rig.  Close hauled, and overpowered, I didn't give the sail a chance to feather to the gust.  I don't recall precisely, but the cam block on the main sheet was badly angled, so it is quite possible that the sheet was cleated rather than just hand held.  I've never sailed a Johanna-style or any other junk rig, but I can't see that the outcome would have been any different.

    Clarification cheerfully acknowledged, James. Neck duly reeled in, leaving just enough slack to bow the head in an act of contrition. I was using full sail, too, in conditions when I would had two reefs if cruising alone offshore.

    So you can confirm that when sailing to windward in more normal circumstances, you can release the sheet and it runs out easily, and the sail feathers and depowers quickly?

  • 26 May 2020 17:56
    Reply # 8993478 on 8992128
    Anonymous wrote:

    The only reason I am replying to Oscar now is because of the heavy sarcasm in that last paragraph of Oscar’s post. I don't have a problem with it, that is just Oscar's way of explaining his take on the discussion, and although I wouldn't put it that way, I understand what he means.

    Thank you for understanding.

    However, it made me suddenly think: I do want to make sure that Oscar didn’t think I was being sarcastic in what I wrote on 22 May. When Oscar misinterpreted what he saw on that video clip, I was sure he sincerely never intended to do that, and I do think the Tuatua thread is currently the best on the forum, and that the Alberg 30 would have been great with a wingsail rig. I just want to make sure that nobody read that as sarcasm. Just for the record, that was straight up what I meant.

    Oscar, I am wondering if I gave you the wrong impression there, and if I did, I surely apologise.

    Not sure which post you're referring to but don't worry in any case. In fact I think you're one of the people here who actively try to see both (or all) sides of the argument and do it in a calm and composed manner, which can't be said of some of the posters here.

    I haven't posted any more in the Alberg thread because I honestly don't really care that much (aside from David being accused of downplaying the SJR's validity while being first to suggest it) and don't have that much time for internet battles right now either way. That being said, and as I mentioned before, I'm a proponent of the SJR, it quite nicely (partially) circumvents the mast drag issue by placing the high AR jiblets in front of it, and takes advantage of the slot effect. While I don't think it's the ultimate rig[0] I quite enthusiastically considered it myself in the beginning of the year, until I solved my mast position/accommodation problem by means of the engine conversion and thus was able to go for my #1 alternative, the wingsail.

    [0] This would probably be a (multi?) slotted wingsail, in terms of performance. The ultimate rig for a poor ocean-cruising gypsy would be a flat junk.

  • 26 May 2020 15:43
    Reply # 8993170 on 8985384

    David wrote (in the Alberg30 thread):

    I was there when River Rat got blown down during the Brixham regatta (Magazine 81, p15). I didn't see it happen with my own eyes, but was sailing in the same conditions, with fresh gusts coming off the land, and I will stick my neck out and say that I don't believe it would have happened if the sail had not been a SJR and the sheet had run out more freely.

    Hi, David, I agree with you that your neck may be a little extended there!  The problem in Brixham was the chap at the tiller.  I had far too much canvas up for the conditions.  I was too greedy, and forgot that old adage that Less is More when it comes to canvas on a Junk rig.  Close hauled, and overpowered, I didn't give the sail a chance to feather to the gust.  I don't recall precisely, but the cam block on the main sheet was badly angled, so it is quite possible that the sheet was cleated rather than just hand held.  I've never sailed a Johanna-style or any other junk rig, but I can't see that the outcome would have been any different. 

    Graeme wrote:

    In any case, there are plenty of other more likely speculative reasons why James got caught in a gust. River Rat has a rather heavy mast and little boats like that are easy to knock down under any rig.  ..... Perhaps James will clarify it.

    As above - skipper error.  But yes, a rather heavy mast (37kg) on a light boat (listed displacement 544kg).  Mast weight 6.8% is a fair bit above Arne's suggested 3%!  But the key problem was having too much canvas up. 


    It's good to see discussions on relative merits of different rigs.  But I do hope that we can keep it civil, and not see slights where they may not be intended.  I really value the contributions of all those who have made contributions to the design, use and promotion of the various rigs covered by this site, and who take the time and trouble to share their experience and expertise with the rest of us.


  • 26 May 2020 12:02
    Reply # 8992878 on 8985384

    What both David D and Arne say is true enough, a skilled sailor can nurse any rig across an ocean, no matter how unsuitable, but it would be better to find out how good it is beforehand. I can go along with all of that, but it's not really addressing the matter at hand.

    Which is, that those of us with enough experience of JR to be in a position to offer advice to newcomers to the rig need to be careful. We need to set aside any predilections, personal preferences and partisan-ships that we may have, and look at the boat, the owner, the resources, the skills, the finance, the intended usage, and so on, and so on, and then make a wise and shrewd assessment of all those factors and offer a balanced recommendation accordingly.

  • 26 May 2020 11:08
    Reply # 8992788 on 8985384
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    David Doran has several good points here.

    Any boat with a new rig will have a number of x-factors to assess.
    The mast, the partners, mast foot, halyard etc. must be in order before going offshore, as must be the sail, i.e. both the designed sailplan and the execution of its construction.
    A series of shake-down sails along the coast must be done, and faults rectified. This also includes finding if the skipper and crew can handle the boat  -  and handle being together in a boat. Some find that they are chronically seasick, and/or just don’t thrive for a long time in a boat.
    Luckily, the few offshore miles I have behind me, have proven that I am reasonably resistant to seasickness, and that I feel safe and happy with no coast around to worry about.

    I therefore conclude that if the boat, rig and crew pass the tests at some extensive coastal cruising, they stand a good chance of doing the same on real ocean voyages. Whether the rig is of this or that type is not that important.

    Arne


    Last modified: 26 May 2020 11:10 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
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