A DIY face mask and other ways to fight the Corona virus

  • 28 Mar 2020 14:41
    Reply # 8863957 on 8863933
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Darren


    • I have read the opposite, that  virus is transported by droplets. I base my mask on that.If that doesent work, then a surgical mask will not work either, since  double layer dishcloth had as good filtering effect (0.02 Micron objects) as the surgical facemask)
    • I don't touch anyone or anything on my way home, before I can wash my hands.
    I again stress that my focus is on not infecting others (in case I am infected) in that shop. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't do any extra harm either.

    Arne

    Last modified: 28 Mar 2020 14:45 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 Mar 2020 14:39
    Reply # 8863956 on 8863893
    Ueli wrote:

    hi mark

    Mark Thomasson wrote:

    …Whilst we are told not to touch our faces, I have yet to hear any advice on how to avoid doing so, any ideas? 

    hand cuffs behind the back could help a lot…

    ueli

    A straightjacket would also be effective.


    https://donottouchyourface.com/

  • 28 Mar 2020 14:18
    Reply # 8863933 on 8863722
    Anonymous wrote:

    Darren,


    I have no cough these days, but even our breath is full of droplets. Just breath onto a cold glass surface and you will see the dew forming on it. 

    If the Corona infection had been so hyper-potent that it would only take a few viruses to infect us, then everyone would have been infected by now. They are not.

    Arne

     


    Arne, I really appreciate your intent to help keep others safe, I think if you approach this as a technical problem you will see that unless you are coughing or sneezing your mask really isn't doing anything to protect others.  When you breath on a cold glass the droplets you see are almost entirely water vapour condensing onto the glass, not droplets of saliva or mucous.  Water vapour does not convey viruses.

    If you remove your mask without sanitising your hands immediately afterwards, then anything you touch is likely to become contaminated with any virus you have.

    If this were an outbreak of novel measles that we didn't have a vaccine for and we were talking about people having to ride crowded trains, like the ones in Japan where they physically pack you in, then the answer as to whether or not wear a mask is reasonable would be different.  

  • 28 Mar 2020 13:04
    Reply # 8863893 on 8855224

    hi mark

    Mark Thomasson wrote:

    …Whilst we are told not to touch our faces, I have yet to hear any advice on how to avoid doing so, any ideas? 

    hand cuffs behind the back could help a lot…

    ueli

  • 28 Mar 2020 11:39
    Reply # 8863843 on 8855224

    Darren, 

    thanks for raising a wider view....yikes it is not easy.

    my thoughts are that you are less likely to touch  your face with a mask on, which could be the sole benefit.  Interestingly if I am out on my once a day run or cycle I don’t touch my face that much.  If I am sitting doing stuff (touched my face just now!) I do it a lot. I guess once ‘safely’ at home the risk is greatly reduced. 
    Whilst we are told not to touch our faces, I have yet to hear any advice on how to avoid doing so, any ideas? 

    Last modified: 28 Mar 2020 11:40 | Anonymous member
  • 28 Mar 2020 10:44
    Reply # 8863797 on 8855224
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I think there is room for more than one opinion here. The Lancet (a reputable source?) supports some of the points made by Darren, but is somewhat more tentative, and allows the possibility that people in quarantine (that's us) might perhaps be recommended to use a mask if they go out "to prevent potential asymptomatic or presymptomatic transmission." 

    See "Rational use of face masks in the COVID-19 pandemic"

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30134-X/fulltext

    This link is referenced by a further set of links to reputable sources. There does not seem to be one single agreed answer to this particular question.


    Arne's latest contribution: I would re-think the last three sentences.

    Last modified: 28 Mar 2020 11:21 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 Mar 2020 10:02
    Reply # 8863722 on 8855224
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Darren,

    as I have spelt pretty slowly, my ambitions with my mask is not to protect myself or to protect the surroundings from me over a long period of time. I just want to minimise the amount of droplets from my breath flying around for those 20 minutes inside my Coop.

    I have no cough these days, but even our breath is full of droplets. Just breath onto a cold glass surface and you will see the dew forming on it. This is what my mask does: The dry, clean mask, made of doubled dish towel tissue, will absorb droplets from my normal breath. I thus both avoid transferring my invisible droplets onto other people, and onto shelves, counters and wotnot. And yes, I don’t touch things unless I am to buy it.

    This is not a perfect way, but it is the best there is for the time being. I will be out of the shop long before the tissue in the mask has come anywhere near saturation of moisture. That is why I think my mask is useful. Back on the street, I take the mask off. Unfortunately, I don’t have antibac, so I go home and wash my hands instead. Even this will not remove any trace of viruses, but I reckon that it takes more than just a few viruses to overwhelm my immune system.
    If the Corona infection had been so hyper-potent that it would only take a few viruses to infect us, then everyone would have been infected by now. They are not.

    Arne

     


    Last modified: 28 Mar 2020 10:34 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 Mar 2020 05:02
    Reply # 8863504 on 8863356
    Anonymous wrote:

    I can’t really argue with Darren from the perspective of self-protection – I don’t know really know enough. But I still think wearing a mask (if you absolutely must go outside) will help prevent the spread. We are talking about two different things. Why does a surgeon wear a mask when performing an appendix operation? It is not to protect against catching appendicitis. If he/she were dealing with something highly infectious, like ebola, a surgical mask would not be near good enough. Darren has not addressed the issue of protecting others and I look forward to his repost with respect and interest because perhaps I will learn something. 

    A mask protects others if you are sneezing or coughing (a really close-talker that spits on you is also a possibility).  A powerful sneeze or cough that is completely unarrested, not sneezing in to your arm etc., will travel 3 feet or more.  It is a complex mix of droplet sizes that fall out at different rates (larger particles faster).  The evidence for coronavirus (SARS and COVID-19) is that it requires fairly large droplet sizes that fall out fairly quickly (within a meter or two and most droplets within a minute).  The air from the rooms of patients that have had COVID-19 as well as SARS (both coronaviruses) have shown that the disease is not present in the air. There are viruses like measles that are smaller and more robust than coronavirus and can exist in smaller droplets (aerosols).  This is part of the reason measles is far more contagious.  The primary transmission for coronavirus is contaminated surfaces that the droplets have fallen onto or surfaces that have been touched with contaminated hands.

    No one can give a single absolute number where you could avoid getting coronavirus from a nearby sneeze or cough, but  I think a reasonable guess is that if you are 6' (2m) away you are unlikely to have a problem (this is a statistical probability, just like the chance that you will die dismembered in a horrible fiery car accident while driving to the grocery store) (except for Annie, I think she walks to get her groceries).  In a crowded hospital setting with a lot of sick people the statistics change.  If you are moving patients who cough involuntarily it is hard to distance yourself.  If there are a lot of folks coughing in a small space there is a greater chance you will encounter enough of particles lingering and for the total exposure of a person tipping to the scales of being dangerous.

    I think most (all ?) jurisdictions have asked sick people to stay home.  If you are not sneezing or coughing or within inches of a persons face while talking, a mask is not going to protect other people.  When was the last time you heard someone coughing or sneezing in public?  I heard one sneeze near the beginning of the outbreak an everyone's head swivelled like they were on ball bearings.  

    I'm not trying to argue that masks have no purpose, just that right now the public wearing them generally does more harm than good.  Arne may well be using his mask effectively, but wearing his mask encourages others to do the same.  If they touch their faces more, re-use masks without sterilisation, don't social distance from a false sense of security, or buy masks that would be better used in hospitals, these all cause negative effects.

    I had an acquaintance with racing car driving experience and watched him drive remarkably on a closed track.  He might navigate many roads competently at twice the speed limit.  Yet allowing everyone to drive at these speeds would be disastrous.  He drives the speed limit like us because it is part of the common good.  Wearing a mask does very little or nothing to improve your safety or the safety of others around you.  Going out at all when you have coronavirus or are just coughing (the case where a mask would do good), is blatantly irresponsible.

    There is not a surplus of masks.  Watching the news tonight shows that there are places in Spain, Italy and New York that are all desperate for masks and other protective gear.  There are huge numbers of masks being misused by the public.  If there was a surplus of masks they could be moved around the world very quickly by air.  

    We are an international community, some of us are being hit very hard by coronavirus and for others the worst is yet to come.  We can all help each other by making sure protective gear is available for health care workers so that they can care for any of our members should they fall ill.


  • 28 Mar 2020 01:51
    Reply # 8863356 on 8855224
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    I can’t really argue with Darren from the perspective of self-protection – I don’t know really know enough. But I still think wearing a mask (if you absolutely must go outside) will help prevent the spread. We are talking about two different things. Why does a surgeon wear a mask when performing an appendix operation? It is not to protect against catching appendicitis. If he/she were dealing with something highly infectious, like ebola, a surgical mask would not be near good enough. Darren has not addressed the issue of protecting others and I look forward to his repost with respect and interest because perhaps I will learn something. The video recommended by Darren is excellent, by the way – everyone should watch it.

    May I add a little more?

    The video recommended by Darren also demonstrates “exponential growth” – the way a virus population (or humans for that matter) proliferates – at least for an initial period. Just a few decades ago “exponential” was a precise mathematical term and not a commonly used word. With the constant watering down of our language, the word “exponential” is now in common use, like “incredible”, often used by people who have a limited vocabulary and such a shortage of superlatives that only clichés seem to be available to them. This word is much more than a superlative. An old Chinese story (which I’ve forgotten but in principle it goes something like this) tells of a man who was punished by the Emperor and his “fine” was to place one grain on rice on the first square of a chess board. Then two on the next – four on the next – doubling each time. Try it some time, and see how far you get. You won’t get very far. That is exponential growth, and demonstrates how explosively a population can multiply itself (and how quickly it could run out of hosts.)

    Apologies, just filling in time now, but I thought it might add something to the topic.

    Best just "stay in your bubble", at home except for absolute necessity.

    Last modified: 28 Mar 2020 02:01 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 28 Mar 2020 01:15
    Reply # 8863348 on 8863230
    Anonymous wrote:

    Darren,

    2.      As for the efficiency of the home-made masks, I had my doubts as well. My motive was mainly to protect the surroundings from me (in case I were infected without knowing). I only wear that mask inside my local Coop, which I only visit for 20 minutes, once a week. The thing is that my local shop is not big, and the 2-metre distance can be difficult to keep there, at all times. The mask has been ironed and is pretty clean when I don it, outside the shop. Then David Tyler showed us the link to a test of different DIY-friendly tissues for masks. The Cambridge university found that a doubled dish towel was as good as anything, if a little hard to breath through. That is what I use now. I manage well for those 20 minutes.

    So, to conclude,

    2.      The mask I wear for those 20 minutes a week is perfectly clean as I enter the Coop.


    Arne, I would ask you how your mask protects you or others from you.   What mechanism do you think your mask is protecting through?  If you have a cough you should not go out, period.  If you are not coughing how do you think a mask improves safety of others from you?  Maybe you're careful and sanitize your hands before you remove your mask, otherwise the act of removing the mask actually increases your risk compared to not wearing one at all.  I can tell you I've witnessed a majority of people misusing their masks.  I have no hope that we could get a majority of people who use masks to use them properly.  Overall, the safer alternative is to not wear masks.  This might make a minute extra risk for those who could wear masks properly, but increases the overall public safety markedly.

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