Radar Reflector Placement

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  • 23 Jul 2019 22:33
    Reply # 7793167 on 7789361
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Safety is all about odds.
    How far one should go to ensure being seen by ships, depends on the conditions one are to sail in, and the density of ships. If crossing the English Channel were to be done frequently, I would most certainly fit an AIS, both receiver and transmitter  -  and a VHF-radio, of course.

    As for passive radar reflectors, David Tyler warns a bit against putting up two of them side by side, because they may produce dead zones. In theory, this is right, but the dead zones are so narrow that it is unlikely that a small vessel, which yaws a bit back and forth, will stay invisible to a ship’s radar for long (for that reason, at least).

    A number of years ago I read a test of radar reflectors in Practical Boat Owner. The most interesting thing was the ‘reference reflector’: This was simply aluminium foil (from the kitchen), stuffed in a big, black plastic garbage bag, which was then hoisted in the rig. This turned out to give a quite decent echo with no dead zones around it.

    As a minimum setup  for cruising in my waters, I would go for this:

    (.. there are plenty of ferries in the area, but  moderate swell to create sea-clutter, and there is only occasionally low visibility, mostly accompanied by light winds...)

    I would bring a big bag made from sailcloth on board. The bag should hold about 100litre, be easy to close, and have a strong hoop at each end. In addition, I would keep a full roll of aluminium foil on board. These take up little room in the boat.

    In the unlikely event of being caught in dense fog in a shipping lane, I would stuff the unrolled aluminium  foil randomly into the bag, close the bag, and then hoist it in my spare halyard, at least half-way up the mast.

    That would make us visible to both S-band and X-band radars. One must only hope that the radar watch-keeper up on the bridge is awake...

    Arne


    Last modified: 23 Jul 2019 23:07 | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 23 Jul 2019 21:19
    Reply # 7793099 on 7789361

    This discussion is very interesting to me. I am having a difficult time deciding what electronics I need to cross Lake Michigan with a reasonable amount of safety. I have met only two people, in real life, to make this passage. A couple I bought an anchor from told me about how they have done it numerous times using only dead-reckoning since Loran was very expensive during the years before GPS.

    Sometimes I convince myself that my phone GPS, a backup hand held GPS and a hand-held VHF is all I need. Other times I think that I would be crazy to cross the shipping lanes without an AIS transponder (TX and RX) and an active radar reflector.

    Getting anywhere near a lake freighter that is underway at full speed in the middle of the lake seems absolutely terrifying. 13 knots and 12,729 tons! The couple I talked to said they never worried about it and very rarely saw any commercial traffic. But that is exactly what concerns me -- not seeing and not being seen.

    Thanks to everyone who is sharing real life experiences with radar reflectors.

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    Last modified: 23 Jul 2019 21:37 | Anonymous member
  • 23 Jul 2019 10:25
    Reply # 7791975 on 7789361

    On Lexia, as well as a passive radar reflector and active AIS, we also have a Sea-Me Active Radar Target Enhancer (Dual Band) which works on X and S bands.  

    As well as providing a strong radar reflection, it also has a visual, ie flashing red light, and an optional audible, ie bleeper, notification that an incoming radar signal has hit the boat.  

    It is yet another electronic gizmo which is expensive to buy, expensive to install and requires electric power ...  but it should significantly improve the chances of being seen on radar.  

    Sea-Me ceased business in 2015 but Echo Max is still available.  


  • 22 Jul 2019 21:34
    Reply # 7791273 on 7789361

    The radar reflector on my boat is about 13 feet above the water. One time in thick fog and choppy seas of about 3 feet I was contacted by radio, by a whale watch fast catamaran (power). My boat also has AIS, and the whale watch captain had seen my AIS signal. He did not see me on radar until he turned down the clutter control on his radar. That was daunting. He was traveling at 27 kn (I know this because of the AIS) and passed about 1/4 mile away, still invisible in the fog. (We won't talk about what he was thinking, traveling at that speed in 100 foot visibility.)

    Installing AIS was a pain – and every bit of aggravation became completely worthwhile at that moment. I am confident in the radar reflector when the seas are pretty flat. But it's still good to do a security call on the radio in poor visibility where one knows there might be traffic, and its even more important when clutter might be an issue. I used to worry about annoying the commercial fishermen by doing those security calls, but I have since heard that in my area – where traffic is predominantly commercial fishermen – they appreciate it.

  • 22 Jul 2019 20:49
    Reply # 7791175 on 7789361
    Deleted user

    Just to add a bit to the discussion here; I see that on the Yachting Monthly website there is a comparison review of a number of radar reflectors, so worth reading for anyone wanting a good radar reflector.

    The other thing is that in my occupation as a Master of high speed passenger ferries I spend many hours operating during periods of darkness, fog, and heavy rain, so I am at the other end trying to identify targets on my radar so I do not if possible run anyone down. The big boats show up no problem at all, in fact a large ship creates a massive echo on the display. It is the small yachts, powerboats, and other small vessels which can be difficult to see. All the small navigation buoys in my local area have radar reflectors on them, just simple sheet plate reflectors, but even at an elevation of only 1 meter above water level those buoys stand out from quite a distance off. Some small boats just do not show up at all, even though I can see their navigation lights.

    Another thing which determines whether or not your vessel will be seen on radar, is the quality of the radar being used, and the degree of vigilance of the radar operator. One of our ferries had a radar which often did not show up many smaller targets, we all used to get quite frustrated with the unit. Then one day the display failed and was replaced with a new higher resolution display, and all of a sudden we were seeing targets which we would have never seen with the old display, still the same scanner unit. So the message here is that no matter what type of radar reflector you have you need to be actively monitoring other boat traffic around you and doing everything you can to avoid being run down. This includes very bright navigation lights correctly displayed which can be seen from some distance off, LED lights seem to be the most effective.

  • 22 Jul 2019 10:26
    Reply # 7790422 on 7789361

    These are the factors that I think worth considering:

    • A metal mast is an excellent reflector when the incoming radar signal is at right angles to it, but rather poor otherwise.
    • A radar reflector mounted on the forward face of the mast is effectively masked from incoming radar from astern.
    • If there are two effective reflectors, close together, sometimes the reflected signals are in phase, reinforcing each other, and sometimes they are out of phase, cancelling each other out. So radar reflectors are very useful on vessels with little or no reflectivity of their own, but not so much when there is a metal mast, or large sheet metal cooker, and not at all on a metal boat.
    • When I had a CARD radar detector at the top of the mizzen, it would pick up transmissions from vessels over the horizon, which were of little interest to me. When I remounted the antenna on the gallows, I just got signals from vessels close at hand. I rather think that the reverse applies, that vessels over 5 miles away are not very interested in me, but vessels in the 1 - 5 mile range that might have to take avoiding action should be, and so a reflector should not be at the masthead, but lower down. A masthead reflector gives TMI.
    These days, I don't make many multi day passages, avoid sailing in fog, and don't often sail near shipping lanes. I shrug my shoulders, rely on the mk 1 human eyeball and long sea going experience, and don't bother with rigging a reflector. If I did sail in an area where fog banks were common in summer, where there was a lot of traffic, particularly fast ferries, and where I might expect to make night passages frequently, then, like Shemaya, I'd adopt a 'hoist when needed' approach. On life rafts, which have no reflectivity of their own, there's a recommendation that an inflatable reflector should be mounted at least 1.5m above sea level, when it should be clear of sea clutter and visible for several miles. Following that advice, it would seem to make sense to have a short tubular mast at the stern, say 2m long, with a halyard for the reflector. It could also act as an ensign staff.
  • 21 Jul 2019 22:13
    Reply # 7789720 on 7789361

    Hi Richard,

    I use an inflatable radar reflector, hoisted in bad weather, for night sailing, and when a little bit offshore. It's at the top of the mizzen mast when raised, because I can do that from the cockpit. But in your picture it looks like it could go up a spare halyard, a bit higher than the radar reflector that is bolted on. I like it because it's quiet, is not particular about being in the "catch rain position" that is best for the sheet metal ones, folds away easily, and creates an enormous return on others' radars. My boat is 20 feet long – one night a commercial fisherman on the radio said "what ARE you? I thought I was running into a barn!"

    Shemaya

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  • 21 Jul 2019 20:24
    Reply # 7789633 on 7789361
    Deleted user

    I struggled with this for a while when preparing my junk rig yacht for offshore. Obviously the best place would be on a pole at the top of the mast, but sometimes that can be awkward to rig up. In the end I hung my radar reflector from the wind generator pole at the stern of the yacht. Another option would be to hoist the radar reflector from a flag halyard or similar in the 'chimney' which is that section of the mast/rig, generally on the starboard side, where the yard and sail do not swing. This is where I rigged up my SSB radio antenna.

    There are lots of fancy and expensive radar reflectors available but the simple sheet aluminium reflectors which provide lots of reflecting corners when hung correctly are as good as any. You can probably find comparative reviews of different radar reflectors online.   

  • 21 Jul 2019 11:19
    Message # 7789361
    Deleted user

    Hi all,

    I bought my first junk rigged boat, a Virgo Voyager, this year and am loving it. I do, however have an issue. 

    Although I did not realise initially, the radar reflector fitted to the mast is stopping me from fully hoisting the sail.

    I have looked at hundreds of images of other small junk rigged boats and find that very few appear to have permanently fitted radar reflectors.

    I would like to ask the membership for your solutions to this issue as clearly the front of the mast is not a great place for most junk riggs.

    Please tell me what you do. Do you have an inflatable reflector, a tube reflector [not very good in tests] or no reflectors at all? I cannot be the only new junk rig sailor struggling with this problem and I couldn't find this subject discussed anywhere on the site.

    Many thanks

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    Last modified: 21 Jul 2019 11:21 | Deleted user
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