Junk or gaff?

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  • 16 Mar 2011 14:37
    Reply # 546935 on 546639
    Deleted user
    Paul Thompson wrote: Jeff,

    ....
    I do have one query. Why would Gloria need standing headroom in the head? I mean all the ladies that I know do it sitting down and the geometry seems to support that.
    ....
    Gloria's somewhat claustrobic. Whatever makes this work for her is fine with me. I'm pretty stiff and creaky too so she partly just gives me an excuse.

  • 16 Mar 2011 00:33
    Reply # 546639 on 499796
    Jeff,

    Your line of thinking makes sense and is undoubtedly the right one for you, given your circumstances.

    I do have one query. Why would Gloria need standing headroom in the head? I mean all the ladies that I know do it sitting down and the geometry seems to support that.

    Anyway, good wishes for the future and I hope you will soon be sailing your junk rigged Bayliner and telling us all about it.
  • 15 Mar 2011 19:47
    Reply # 546484 on 545908
    Deleted user
    Jeff McFadden wrote: Here's the reason I had decided on the Buccaneer: Gloria is absolutely adamant that our boat must have standing room in the head.  I am absolutely adamant that it must be sufficient for weekends or weeks, and trailerable.  Given the two absolute requirements, I don't know of another sailboat that will fit the bill.  

    The Buccaneer is short and fat, portly and slow.  Alas, I too am all those things.  I am afraid that we may be well suited to one another.
    Well, it does sound like you have thought out what you want in a boat, and that increases your odds of liking what you end up with immensely!

    I have very limited experience with trailerable sailboats big enough to have a cabin, let alone one with standing headroom in the head.  I am sure you have looked at many more than I have by now.

    Our prior sailboat was only a bit outside your size range.  The Northern Crow was a Coronado 25 (I think ~5000 pounds, and the 4 foot fin keel wouldn't make for easy trailering). But what is more interesting about her is that she was originally a boat with a HUGE sliding cabintop / companionway hatch, and the prior owner had rebuilt her.  I suspect that lots of rotten plywood cored deck in the area was likely the start of that project.  What he did was increase the cabin height to make a small section with standing headroom, and the result was quite elegant.

    So consider where the cabin height can be jacked up without harm--it often works better with a junk rig, as the boom cants upward aft.  Also think about various pop-up, hinge-up, or slide-open roof options to add headroom where (and when) you need it.

    Well it sounds like you have some time to spend thinking about how your Buccaneer rebuild will work....and keep an eye out for other possible boats.

    And I must say that the Nor'sea sounds like a much better boat for somebody else.  It is far better suited to one person wanting to sail across oceans than for two people wanting to trailer across Missouri!

    Good luck!
    Barry
  • 15 Mar 2011 01:29
    Reply # 545908 on 544950
    Deleted user
    Barry & Meps / Stellrecht & Schulte wrote:
    Jeff McFadden wrote:I could actually swing 11 grand if it was absolutely the right thing for me, so Gloria, formerly referred to as "my wife," and I did some serious thinking....
    Sounds like a wise starting point.  But do make sure you are realistic about the cost to get a boat out sailing as you wish it--not just the cost of buying it.  Boats that are scruffy or gutted can easily cost 2~3X their purchase price to get ready to sail.  Don't rule out "free" but it may not be as much cheaper as you thought at the outset!...

    I would suggest that you have some much more fundamental questions to answer before you embark on your junk rig sailing / conversion plan.  Here is where I would start:
    • It sounds like you aren't dreaming about selling/renting the farm and sailing your little junk rigged boat across oceans.  That sort of usage calls for a very sturdy boat, and can be done with a heavy boat.  (The Nor'sea is probably a good choice for that if you can fit onto her.)
    • If you have a specific (other) sailing dream, it would lead you toward a specific boat that suites your plans...
      • Trailering a boat to "big" waters in different cruising grounds for week-long or month-long sails
      • Sailing in smaller (closer) lakes for weekend trips...
    • Some people like sailing boats.  Some people like working on boats.  Some people like both.  Don't start a 5-year refit on a boat you really want to sail this summer!
    ...Most all boats are very good for some purpose, and if you know what your purpose is, you can see pretty clearly that 99% of them would work better for somebody else.
    I seriously appreciate all the thought my friends in the JRA give to issues like this for me and others.

    I don't expect this project to be cheap.  I've built a couple of boats already and know how easy it is to make money vanish into one.  The deal on the Buccaneer was "Double axle trailer with surge brakes $2250.00 comes with free boat."  The boat is absolutely gutted to the bare fiberglass inside, which in my opinion is better than full of rot and stink and needing to be gutted.  Half the work is already done.

    Strange though it may sound, I was looking for a Bayliner Buccaneer in the first place.  As far as I can tell there aren't any really good ones out there due to too much end-grain balsa and not enough good sealing.  Here's the reason I had decided on the Buccaneer: Gloria is absolutely adamant that our boat must have standing room in the head.  I am absolutely adamant that it must be sufficient for weekends or weeks, and trailerable.  (I know that to some people a 3,000 pound 24 foot tubmarine may seem to be stretching a point as trailerable, but I've been trailering a homebuilt 3500 pound 24 foot pontoon shantyboat and launching it on the Missouri River for for some years.  I'll do it for a day trip.  And I already own a truck that will do the job.)  Given the two absolute requirements, I don't know of another sailboat that will fit the bill.  Maybe a scratch-built one, but that's a serious investment of time and money and out of the question at this stage in my life.

    The plan is to have my Puddle Duck Racer ready for local lake sailing to sail this summer - the silly little things are great fun - and work on the Buccaneer over the summer when not sailing.  I don't need to have any interior in the Buccaneer at all before I can use it for local lake daysailing, just a completely sound hull and rig.  The hull can use a layer of NidaCore & fiberglass, but the fiberglass fabric I have on hand and the NidaCore I can budget.  Then the mast, tabernacle, and sail. I figure I can be daysailing the Buccaneer next summer, overnighting in it the next, cruising the following.

    On the other hand, the Nor'sea is extremely rough on the interior and laid out for a single occupant, to the point that as far as I can see it only has one berth.  The choice is not as clear as it looks unless one intends to cross oceans, which I don't see in my future, at least not with Gloria, and I have made my commitment regarding our marriage.  The Nor'sea doesn't have a trailer, so I'd be hard pressed to park it at home where my workshop is and really hard pressed to create a decent interior in it on Chesapeake Bay.  If I could swing a trailer ($3000.00?  $4000.00?) to haul it I'd have to come up with at least a 3/4 ton pickup, maybe a 1 ton, to tow it.  That'd set me back an additional twenty grand for even a good used one.

    The Buccaneer is short and fat, portly and slow.  Alas, I too am all those things.  I am afraid that we may be well suited to one another.  I have threatened for years to have a Slow Moving Vehicle symbol sewn onto the back of my jacket.  

    All these plans are on hold for the moment now, as I spend a third week 1500 miles from home sitting with my ailing 95 year old mother.  I should be finishing up the PDRacer right now, but Mom comes first.

    Please excuse the long ramble.

    Jeff
  • 13 Mar 2011 20:55
    Reply # 544950 on 544315
    Deleted user
    Jeff McFadden wrote:I could actually swing 11 grand if it was absolutely the right thing for me, so Gloria, formerly referred to as "my wife," and I did some serious thinking. She wasn't going to stand in my way if I was sure this was right.

    On the other hand, I already own a scruffy and gutted Bayliner Buccaneer 24, sitting on a high-dollar trailer. If I'm willing to spend ten grand or more to have a junk-rigged cruiser this will make a better boat for me.
    Sounds like a wise starting point.  But do make sure you are realistic about the cost to get a boat out sailing as you wish it--not just the cost of buying it.  Boats that are scruffy or gutted can easily cost 2~3X their purchase price to get ready to sail.  Don't rule out "free" but it may not be as much cheaper as you thought at the outset!

    (I personally found nothing to attract me to the Bayliner Buccaneer I once saw, from either aesthetics or engineering/construction details, but I'm sure you want different things from yours.  I think the one I saw was larger than 24 feet.)

    Jeff McFadden wrote: We still live dead in the middle of the US and own two small farms, one apiece. Parking a Nor'sea in, say, Chesapeake Bay would still leave us about 18 highway hours away from it, and selling two small farms im Missouri wouldn't buy a shack on the Atlantic seaboard.

    I figure if we become skilled enough for the US Great Lakes and Atlantic coastal cruising we will never get to where we stop learning. And in between times we can haul her 2 or 3 hours to that 25,000 acre lake and snoop up coves. Jeff
    I would suggest that you have some much more fundamental questions to answer before you embark on your junk rig sailing / conversion plan.  Here is where I would start:
    • It sounds like you aren't dreaming about selling/renting the farm and sailing your little junk rigged boat across oceans.  That sort of usage calls for a very sturdy boat, and can be done with a heavy boat.  (The Nor'sea is probably a good choice for that if you can fit onto her.)
    • If you have a specific (other) sailing dream, it would lead you toward a specific boat that suites your plans--big enough for the stores you need for your cruise, small enough to get where you want to go, capable of handling the waters you wish to sail in, etc.  Each of these examples would want a different boat in my estimation:
      • Keeping a boat in "big water" a day or two's drive away from you
        • The Caribbean
        • The Great lakes
        • Chesapeake Bay
      • Trailering a boat to "big" waters in different cruising grounds for week-long or month-long sails
      • Sailing in smaller (closer) lakes for weekend trips
      • The "Great Loop" (down the Mississippi system, around the Intra-Coastal Waterway, and back to the beginning; probably a year's journey, and more trawlering than sailing.)
    • Some people like sailing boats.  Some people like working on boats.  Some people like both.  Don't start a 5-year refit on a boat you really want to sail this summer!
    I hope you have already decided which one(s) are the dreams you want to follow, but just in case, here's my two bits and then some pushing you to make your choices well before you buy the "wrong" boat.  Most all boats are very good for some purpose, and if you know what your purpose is, you can see pretty clearly that 99% of them would work better for somebody else.
  • 12 Mar 2011 14:09
    Reply # 544315 on 543998
    Deleted user
    Annie Hill wrote: Dreams are difficult things if they're not shared.  And can be expensive in money, misery or both.  I've certainly lived in worse conditions than the boat under discussion  and can see a lot of potential - she's a hell of a lot better value for money than my boat was.  A good pedigree, probably a good boat apart from being rather rough round the edges.  She's presumably been out of the water, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem with osmosis.  If it were just you I'd ask 'what have you got to lose'.  But as it isn't just you, the answer is 'your wife'.  Suddenly it doesn't seem such good value?

    But if you could find some way of having your cake and eating it ... Sell something else to buy the boat (your car? - a bike is sooooooooo green and healthy) ... then it's your project, your responsibility and one day you can offer it as a gift to your wife to share and enjoy with you.

    Good luck.

    Well thought out, Annie. I've been doing some thinking too.
    I could actually swing 11 grand if it was absolutely the right thing for me, so Gloria, formerly referred to as "my wife," and I did some serious thinking. She wasn't going to stand in my way if I was sure this was right.
    While the Nor'sea is "transportable," the fact is that at 8'000 + pounds & with a keel stepped mast it's not what you'd call trailerable. We still live dead in the middle of the US and own two small farms, one apiece. Parking a Nor'sea in, say, Chesapeake Bay would still leave us about 18 highway hours away from it, and selling two small farms im Missouri wouldn't buy a shack on the Atlantic seaboard.
    On the other hand, I already own a scruffy and gutted Bayliner Buccaneer 24, sitting on a high-dollar trailer. If I'm willing to spend ten grand or more to have a junk-rigged cruiser this will make a better boat for me. She's a tubby little cruiser, 24 feet and full standing headroom in the head and galley, shallow draft keel - an ideal gunkholer for a pokey old geezer.
    This assumes a mast in a tabernacle. I know it's pushing a point to trust a tabernacle, but I don't see us crossing any oceans. I'm 63, Gloria's 60, and the largest boat I've ever sailed is 17 feet, the largest body of water 25000 acres. I figure if we become skilled enough for the US Great Lakes and Atlantic coastal cruising we will never get to where we stop learning. And in between times we can haul her 2 or 3 hours to that 25,000 acre lake and snoop up coves. Jeff
  • 12 Mar 2011 11:30
    Reply # 544249 on 502016
    Deleted user
    Annie Hill wrote: Hi Maxime

    I know the Colvin pinky and they are great boats, but heavy to sail.

    I've sailed over a hundred thousand miles with junk rig and over fifty with gaff.  As far as I'm concerned there is no choice.  Not only is the gaff rig much more work, it is also much more frustrating because the sails only work well for such a small proportion of your sailing, after which everything has to be boomed out, vanged down, etc, etc.

    Of course, if she's a really lovely boat and bearing in mind you've never sailed a junk rig so don't know what you're missing ... it might be worth it.

    Having been involved with boats for more than fifty years I have found that the best boat is the one that you can afford and are passionate about. I've  had boats and rigs that I remember quite fondly but my personal preference is the Junk Rig. It has its limitations but generally is a great cruising boat. While in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia I met a number of sailors that are equally passionate about their gaff rig boats. Watching them race is certainly beautiful. We are certainly biased towards Junk Rigs in this forum. For an equally biased opinion on gaff rigs visit http://www.nsschooner.ca/
  • 11 Mar 2011 22:37
    Reply # 543998 on 499796
    Dreams are difficult things if they're not shared.  And can be expensive in money, misery or both.  I've certainly lived in worse conditions than the boat under discussion  and can see a lot of potential - she's a hell of a lot better value for money than my boat was.  A good pedigree, probably a good boat apart from being rather rough round the edges.  She's presumably been out of the water, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem with osmosis.  If it were just you I'd ask 'what have you got to lose'.  But as it isn't just you, the answer is 'your wife'.  Suddenly it doesn't seem such good value?

    But if you could find some way of having your cake and eating it ... Sell something else to buy the boat (your car? - a bike is sooooooooo green and healthy) ... then it's your project, your responsibility and one day you can offer it as a gift to your wife to share and enjoy with you.

    Good luck.
  • 10 Mar 2011 16:34
    Reply # 542960 on 541895
    Deleted user
    Maxime Camirand wrote:
    Jeff McFadden wrote:
    Maxime Camirand wrote: Ok, so I'm convinced; a gaff rig is out of the question!

    Jeff: Nice model of boat, but what happened to the poor thing's interior? No wonder it's listed for $16k... 

    Listed for $16k and not moving. But it seems that he prefers it. Nothing's perfect. I think Annie's lived in worse!

    Now 11k!

    Oh Lord, oh Lord! I'm waiting for an answer on a money issue and the right one might bring that within my reach. I've lived in worse on land. My wife, alas, never has and I'm not sure she wants to start now.
  • 09 Mar 2011 03:29
    Reply # 541895 on 506921
    Jeff McFadden wrote:
    Maxime Camirand wrote: Ok, so I'm convinced; a gaff rig is out of the question!

    Jeff: Nice model of boat, but what happened to the poor thing's interior? No wonder it's listed for $16k... 

    Listed for $16k and not moving. But it seems that he prefers it. Nothing's perfect. I think Annie's lived in worse!

    Now 11k!
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