Another write up by Arne Kverneland

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  • 14 Aug 2018 15:05
    Reply # 6572637 on 869421

    Branwen is just back in UK waters at the end of a 3 year cruise England - W Indies - Chesapeake Bay - W Indies - England. Her schooner rig has home - built cambered panel sails designed by Arne. The sails have proved satisfactory in almost all respects and are ready for further cruising.

    If I make new sails in the future, I may decide to go for a high aspect rig as advocated by David. I can see numerous advantages in his ideas, but would need to fit taller masts. So I am happy with what I have and say thank you Arne, for sharing your designs with the rest of us.

    Thanks also to David for your innovative ideas and the clever technical solutions you keep providing here.

  • 13 Aug 2018 23:00
    Reply # 6559240 on 6557913

    David wrote:But Annie, this isn't news to me! This is exactly where I am with Weaverbird. I don't know whether she's "faster" or "better" because I have nothing to compare her to. I only know for sure that I enjoy sailing her because she's fun, easy to handle and aesthetically pleasing (to me, at any rate). And if I can quote Pol, "... but WEAVERBIRD looks terrific. Very neat and totally effective." 
    Yes, David my dear, but what you don't realise is that many people reading your postings would get the impression that you think everyone should have a Weaverbird rig and that anyone who doesn't is a fool.  I know this isn't what you mean, but this is how it comes across.  Anyone who has been following your mental peregrinations will know that this is your way - I distinctly remember being texted an equally robust refutation of my feeble defence of HAR rigs when we were designing Fantail's.  Now you would be recommending one!  You are an enthusiast for your idea of the moment, which is great, but although you encourage constructive criticism and enjoy lively debate, on forum this comes across as something rather more contentious.

    You wrote the forum policies, and so I assume you consider that you are "expressing [your views] in a civil, thoughtful manner" and that you wouldn't dream of "making a personal attack", but that isn't how it always comes across.  Those of us who know you are aware of your generosity, but you do also somewhat enjoy the role of GOM, which those who don't know you may not understand.

    Arne and you have robust self-esteem.  You and Slieve have bickered contentedly for decades. But on forum these things aren't always apparent and, particularly newer members, sensitive to the trolling and bad manners that are apparently prevalent on other website, might be worried that ours is degenerating in a similar fashion.  Don't forget you are writing on the General Forum, which is open to everyone.

    If you treat as sensitive flowers having delicate egos, you won't offend.  I know that isn't your way, face to face, but fora are different, many readers use English as a second language and one does need to think before pressing Post.  I know I'm not one to talk - I tend to jump in boots and all.  Maybe this is why I am aware of the offence one can inadvertently cause.

  • 13 Aug 2018 21:58
    Reply # 6558017 on 6544319
    Anonymous wrote:
    Gary wrote:
    David wrote:

    Another way of assembling sail panels and pockets - like Arne's method, this can be done in a small room, but with a much better result.


    Actually I like that. Not sure if I could fit them to my completed sail though it could be worth a try. The webbing loops work on my sail but it's not as tidy as pockets. Am I correct that the pockets have a built in back to them David?
    No, I screw through eyelets into the batten at both ends.
    What I meant was the batten pockets are sewn up as a tube and then sewn to the sail?
  • 13 Aug 2018 21:53
    Reply # 6557913 on 6557503
    Annie wrote:

    And I have to break the news to Slieve, Arne and David: some of us just aren't good enough sailors to get the most out of our boats anyway, but we do enjoy sailing something that we find fun, easy to handle and aesthetically pleasing.  

    But Annie, this isn't news to me! This is exactly where I am with Weaverbird. I don't know whether she's "faster" or "better" because I have nothing to compare her to. I only know for sure that I enjoy sailing her because she's fun, easy to handle and aesthetically pleasing (to me, at any rate). And if I can quote Pol, "... but WEAVERBIRD looks terrific. Very neat and totally effective." 
  • 13 Aug 2018 21:40
    Reply # 6557655 on 869421

    David, do either you or I have the right to criticise Arne's work and say that it can be improved? I think not. He has developed and published a very easy way of building a rig which has worked well not only for himself, but also for his readers, and which should be encouraged. If we have questions then we should ask them as such and not claim greater expertise, because none of us can rightly do that.

    Your paragraph which I quoted appears to be written to suggest that you have knowledge and expertise above the rest of us mere mortals, yet I feel that that should be challenged. I am aware of the 'pressures' having spent 5 years in academia and then been employed as a design engineer in one of the top projects in this country, and am well aware that even then we did not criticise each others work, but tried to learn from each other. At best, in the junk rig world we are all experimenters, and in reality none of us are in a position to criticise each others experimenters.

    Yes, I am 'up in arms' as it would appear to me to be bad form to fire and leave a critical broadside in print and then turn round and say that we are really just friends. Yes, it is time to drop this dialogue, but question if the criticisms should be left in print.

    Slieve.

  • 13 Aug 2018 21:33
    Reply # 6557503 on 869421

    Look at the photos below.  Wouldn't it be boring if we were all sailing with the same JR - we'd end up being as bland as pointy boats.

    And I have to break the news to Slieve, Arne and David: some of us just aren't good enough sailors to get the most out of our boats anyway, but we do enjoy sailing something that we find fun, easy to handle and aesthetically pleasing.  So we may not actually, be agonising over some of the things that maybe we should find important, but are saying 'I like the looks of that' instead.  Wrinkles and all.  (I hope I don't get dismissed out of hand for a few wrinkles!!)

  • 13 Aug 2018 21:19
    Reply # 6557205 on 869421
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Ladies and gentlemen

    The conclusion of my last write-up might be called bold, big-mouthed and even cocky and provoking.  Still, I stand by it and let it be a challenge to you. Luckily I didn’t bet on it, so if (when) someone comes up with a faster JR, at least I don’t have to eat my hat.

    Good luck, everyone!

    Arne


  • 13 Aug 2018 19:49
    Reply # 6555263 on 6552337
    Slieve wrote:

    Oh dear! I cannot believe what I'm reading. For years you have felt free to criticize other's efforts at experimenting, David, but now have risen to a new level. 

    Oh dear, Slieve! I wonder why it is that you're up in arms whenever I see something that could be improved, and have the temerity to say so? Yes, of course I criticise. All through my life as a designer, I have had to present my work, explain it and defend it against robust and searching criticism from my peers. Academics are used to working this way, too. I seek, expect and welcome such criticism, as it spurs me on to improve that which needs to be improved. If the work is good, it will stand up to examination. If it's not, it won't.

    Could you just check for me that you're fully up to speed on what's been said here recently, having read though:

    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/yachtclubbar/6530652#6540130

    http://www.junkrigassociation.org/general_forum/6346955#6554873

  • 13 Aug 2018 17:40
    Reply # 6552337 on 869421

    David T wrote - “Have we started giving away free pairs of rose tinted spectacles with each JRA magazine, or something? Does no-one else cast a shrewd eye over things and assess where they are satisfactory, and how they can be made better? Or is it just that having been a designer for nearly fifty years, that is my default state? Anyway, you all know what I think about flat barrel-cut panels, and I'm clearly not getting many people to take in and understand the benefits of the short, low-angled yard and how it works, so I'll say no more, and continue to be the only one marching in step.”

    Oh dear! I cannot believe what I'm reading. For years you have felt free to criticize other's efforts at experimenting, David, but now have risen to a new level. It's time to take off the polarizing lenses and replace them with clear view lenses. It is true that you have been experimenting with rigs for nearly 50 years, but from all that work it is difficult to see any obvious line of development followed or any resulting design and write up that anyone new to the rig would be advised to adopt.

    Realising the weaknesses of the Bermudan rig, and after examining other rigs, Arne has taken the Hasler/ Mcleod (HM) rig and developed it through hinged battens and then cambered panels to a level that he has written up to provide an inexperienced amateur with all that is needed to build an efficient rig by the simplest methods. Such work is to be applauded, not criticized.

    As for being the only one marching in step, in step with whom? Speaking from memory the new 'truth' of lower yard angles and shorter yards started when the split rig appeared, which also encouraged the use of broadseam. The complete lower shorter yard package included the tapering of the luff to balance the the forces from the taper of the leech to further reduce the stresses in the rig, so perhaps you're not quite in step yet.

    We are all getting older and set in our ways, but that can be no excuse for such unwarranted criticism.

    I may not be 100% happy with Arne's write up, and that is why I have been slow to respond to him. Any criticisms I may have will go directly to him in private so that we both can learn from the experience, and hopefully not embarrass either of us.

    Slieve.


  • 13 Aug 2018 11:25
    Reply # 6544319 on 6543847
    Gary wrote:
    David wrote:

    Another way of assembling sail panels and pockets - like Arne's method, this can be done in a small room, but with a much better result.


    Actually I like that. Not sure if I could fit them to my completed sail though it could be worth a try. The webbing loops work on my sail but it's not as tidy as pockets. Am I correct that the pockets have a built in back to them David?
    No, I screw through eyelets into the batten at both ends.
    Last modified: 13 Aug 2018 11:27 | Anonymous member
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